I was stunned watching the debate. The lying and malevolent Donald J Trump showed up as expected, but who was that other guy? Here’s the thing…I have lived through one Trump administration, and I cannot bear the thought of living through another. I have lived through a Biden administration as well, and it is a wholly different and better experience. I will vote for a peanut butter sandwich before I put myself in the position of living through Trump again. If Democrats replace Biden, I will vote for that replacement. If he stays on the ticket, I will vote for Biden. This time, I am voting for the (D). And i am absolutely voting.
Most Biden voters will remain loyal, especially if they’re partisan Dems. But many people who voted for him last time will now stay home, or vote for Trump or 3rd party. The Dems should switch Biden out to have a fighting chance in the congressional elections.
When faced with a choice if Trump vs. anyone else, I don’t believe for a minute that previous Biden voters will cast votes for Trump. Or for the Republicans who have revealed themselves to be anti-democratic nutbags. Stay home? Maybe..but that is what the Bernie Bros gave us when Hillary was the candidate. I don’t think any patriotic American wants to hand the election to Trump. Nor will they.
You make fair comments, but you fail to account for the casual voters or the folks who are true swing voters, and you need some of those to win. That category may or may not vote for Trump, but they're not going to turn out for a the guy they see as too infirm for the job. See my broader comment on this point also.
And those “casual voters” weren’t watching the debate.
I’m disappointed in Biden’s performance, but instead of the typical Democratic circular firing squad approach that so many “operatives” are doing right now (why am I not surprised that’s what Chris wants to highlight?), I’d say the Biden campaign needs to change their direction and do it fast!
I’m no pro or pundit, so I can’t say clearly *how* they need to change, but more appearances by Biden, more events (rallies?), get him out there more (maybe at the right time of day?), etc. Make it clear the debate performance was a fluke. Make sure he’s vibrant and engaged.
We know he can do that because we saw him do that at the SOTU.
For the most part I agree with you. I think the best tactic for Joe's campaign at this point is to dilute his debate performance by getting him back out there. Assuming he can do it, he needs to be in unscripted environments. A series of town halls, interviews, etc.
"We know he can do that because we saw him do that at the SOTU."
True, but the SOTU is scripted. I think we all know Joe can give a speech. The question raised by his debate performance is "can he think on his feet."
Yes, many - maybe most - casual voters wouldn't have seen the debate, but they will hear it described in highly unflattering terms. This wasn't just a bad day. It cemented rather than eradicated concerns about Joe's condition. IMO, rallies and cozy interviews can't fix this. He never should have run again. Ds need to be clear-eyed about the best course now to stop the menace Trump presents.
So instead of the hand wringing the party unite to assure 45 loses? I fear 2016 all over again; Hillary blew off swing states, the Comey letter, Democrats staid home. And what did we get? Are we that stupid as an electorate to repeat recent history and enable him and his thugs, now with a SCOTUS majority, to turn us into a fascist state? Levin on FOX last night was proclaiming that the President is in Stage 5 Dementia (of seven stages). Since when did he become a neurologist? Why isn't the real media covering these lies?
Please do a sanity re-set. Hillary and Kerry won their debates, how did that go?
The event on Thursday night was not critically significant; the Presidency is not a debate tournament. “What we all saw” was a completely insane Donald Trump, while Biden was having a bad spell that passed quickly. We must not allow insane Trump to get near the Oval Office again. Joe will be fine.
We are on the same team, but this is the gaslighting people are referring to. “You don’t have to debate well to be president” welp you do need to be able to formulate complete sentences. And before the presidency, there’s the campaign. Unclear how Biden can make the case for himself because, again, it involves the ability to articulate at least some points. They can roll out surrogates, that’s not going to assuage any concerns from the barely engaged voters who actually decide this election. We should demand better than denying reality a la the GOP. We should demand better than a candidate who invites a collective breath hold every time he speaks. Obligatory “I actually love Joe Biden, I just can no longer go along with the charade” disclaimer
I would like to believe this. But the burden of proof now falls even heavier on President Biden to demonstrate he's up to the job. Fortunately this happened in June and not October.
I believe if you go back you'll see that he was goaded by Trump. Anytime. Any place. It was on truth social so maybe he could have ignored it but felt that it would turn into another Biden in the basement issue
So, when are Democrats actually going to start putting their names on these messages to journalists? Because anonymous complaints aren’t going to change anything. If Democrats want a change at the top of the ticket, they’re going to have to go public.
While the Republican Party is clearly the worse of the two, the Democratic Party is comprised of human beings just the same. And human beings act in the ways humans do; in this case, self-preservation and tribal allegiance are strong motivators to stay silent. It's why most Republicans haven't bucked Trump despite his manifest unfitness. Speaking out publicly in the face of threats and social pressures is the act of a remarkable human being and it wouldn't be remarkable if it was common.
I'd prefer knowing the source of the "insider info". It would make it more impactful. But having said that, I trust Chris and because he trusts the author of this message I think it's important to hear his words.
No. It’s not fake news. The chattering class of Democratic pundits and “professionals” are all up in their head over this. My response? Whatever!
We need to get the Biden campaign to change course and do it quickly. They can’t just keep doing the same ol’ same ol’ and think they’re going to get to 270.
Are you saying you saw a Biden Thursday that you honestly believe can handle the office of the Presidency for 4.5 more years? I emphatically did not. What's the course change to address that clear decline?
A poll this morning showed that 72 percent of the people don't think that Biden has the mental acuity to do the job. So, as bad as another Trump presidency would be, this is a problem.
So you think we should just ignore respected people like Tom Friedman who are calling for Biden to step down and pretend that everything is going to work out? Ok, but if Biden loses, who do you blame?
One aspect of today's political environment is that many people talk about politics only to like-minded people.This is why Trumpers were shocked when he lost: everyone they knew voted for Trump. Right now, many Dems on social media and private email chains are saying things that are true but not reflective of the broader picture: eg,"one debate should not change the fact that Joe has a great record"; "old and competent is better than ignorant and crazy." Here is the broader picture: Ds and high info voters will turn out for Joe. But that's it and that's not enough.I travel in circles that include casual voters or real swing voters.They may or may not vote for Trump, but they are definitely not turning out for Joe. He had a chance to dispel concerns re his age. Instead, he set those concerns in concrete. Campaigns in the past didn't even start till the convention. As Sarah Longwell rightly says, (1)the biggest voting coalition is the anti-Trump vote. Most new Dem candidates would start with that block, which is almost enough to win: (2) nominate Whitmer and Shapiro and you have a great chance to win their two home, swing states and energize women in a year when women's issues are key. It wouldn't be easy, but I think it's possible , and I'm sad to say that - at the moment- I don't know how Joe can recover.
I really appreciate your comment about how campaigns, in the past, didn’t start until the convention. Consider this scenario, and the viewership of the convention.....Whitmer and Shapiro (& I agree with this team) are nominated at the convention for all to see. An open convention with nominations & voting by the state delegates, etc, etc, just doesn’t happen anymore. I remember watching some when I was much younger....they are exciting to watch...just imagine the viewership!!! The fact that Biden “recovered with a coherent scripted the speech the following day” means nothing, At his age the “lapses” in memory and physical limitations can crop up anytime & anywhere. A massive “Thank You, Joe” send off can become part of the convention. REALITY has got to take precedence NOW.
Excellent point about the political bubble people live in. For those of us who are truly engaged and constantly fed an algorithm that aligns with our beliefs, it's difficult to imagine how many people hold views completely opposed to ours. It's even more difficult to wrap our heads around those millions of 'low info' voters, the people who are spending little to no time thinking about the things that are giving us sleepless nights. How do we reach them? If the Democratic pols haven't figured out how yet, I'm afraid they never will.
The Rs have pulled the greatest trick in memory . They own rural America and working class whites by stoking fears re social change and immigrants , but they do nothing for the those people. They win by building upon that base with folks who vote to keep taxes and regulation low. We need a D leader who can explain all that and how D policies benefit the folks you reference. Joe can’t . Whitmer, Shapiro, among others, can. That’s how they won in swing states
It's only been a couple days. Do you think maybe as a country we should take a deep breath and take some time before we make such a significant decision?
Yes, overreacting is not good. So is failing to react when action is needed. Joe had a chance to dispel concerns about his age. Instead, he made that the central issue in the campaign, and it’s an issue we can’t win. Dems will turn out for Joe, but we can’t now get enough swing votes or states to win. See my longer comment re a path forward.
I'm just objecting to the shoot first ask questions later mentality that seems to be happening because it drives the media clicks. Okay. Everyone's made their point. Some people think he needs to quit. Now he's got a decision to make
It’s true that many Independents won’t vote for Trump. But too many will stay home. If you just socialize with hardcore Ds, you’d think Biden will be fine. I have a broader circle. And Biden’s condition is a gating issue for many. Just look at the polls. Ask yourself how a POTUS with a great record is losing or neck and neck with a know-nothing , criminal who failed as POTUS.
It's not 2 days. Not 2 weeks, not 2 months, not even 2 years.
Those of us who work or live among MAGA folks know it has been 4 years of constant non-stop SLEEPY JOE, BRANDON SUCKS, JOE DID THAT STICKERS, DELIVERANCE PICTURES, ETC. NON-FREAKING STOP.
The indies, those on the margins, were always going to determine the 2024 election. They heard all the trumpf noise, they saw the chaos from MAGA, and they listened to us assure them everything was going to be FINE.
Every pundit said the same thing: Biden has to come out and be sane and normal and clear and lucid for 10-15 minutes and it would be over. Easy task for Joe, the most experienced debater in modern history.
He failed it. Miserably. Horribly. I don't care how well he did the next day. On the DAY it counted, he failed.
It's over for Joe. Sad ending for a remarkable man and career. But it's over, whether you or any lifelong dem's want to admit it.
Unfortunately for me I also live among maga folks. I know what they're saying. I'm also not a lifelong Dem and it's kind of interesting that you think that's an accusation you can make to dismiss my opinion. The way forward is not going to be easy no matter what the decision ends up being. I've listened to plenty of other people's opinions besides just this page. I'm anti-trump all the way, however it works out
1). The fact that she or he fears retribution from Biden people shows this is an unreasonable, hysterical person. Dems are not the party of violence, MAGA is.
2.) To hint that you would betray your party by not voting for the selected candidate as a delegate means you do not deserve the trust we have given you.
3.). Yes, I agree the debate was not good. But it was not good for either candidate and refusing to acknowledge that is shameful.
4.). We know from experience that MAGA now seem to outnumber traditional members of the GOP. We are literally in a fight against fascism. WAKE UP!!!
To me, this is why Trump has the better chance to win the presidency.
1) Retribution is not only violence. It is taking influence and power from someone, no violence needed.
2) Going "against " your party to vote for someone who you think isn't capable of doing the job FOUR more years, is not betrayal to the betterment of the country.
3) No one is denying that Trump had a bad debate, but it doesn't matter because the Biden inability to articulate clear thoughts overshadowed Trump's lies and misdirection of every response.
This is what concerns me so much about the Democrats. Biden did bad, but Trump is worse. If people thought Trump is so bad, why is he even close to leading the polls. In my mind it's because people don't trust Biden to make it FOUR more years. And unfortunately the 90 minutes on Thursday didn't demonstrate he can. Right now the binary choice is Trump or Biden, but it's not too late to change to someone who could challenge Trump on Stage, and not only at rallies with a teleprompter.
This is the thing. We can't keep telling ourselves what we already know as if we're trying to convince ourselves to vote for Biden. As Bill Maher says, I'd vote for Joe Biden's head in a jar of blue liquid over Trump. But we aren't the ones that need convincing. It's the ones that don't just think Trump is bad - some really don't know, as scary as notion as that is. It's not about what pro-Biden and anti-Trump voters think; it's about everyone else that's not in those groups that matters now. If they think Biden's debate is disqualifying, that's all it takes.
Well, I must lead a sheltered life because I'm in Wisconsin and I don't know anyone who is undecided. My friends and family who live in the big city are all firmly Democratic and my neighbors in the place I live are firmly Republican. To me it's more about turnout in Milwaukee than it is being undecided. And that's where the party needs to make it super clear to people who would sit it out that it's going to hurt them in the long run
Exactly! And the exact same argument the GOP is making with Trump: “Don’t believe what you see and hear.” Reminds me of The Wizard of Oz: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”
I angry, frustrated and sad. Feel like we’re heading towards major disaster and we all see it coming.
It is really kind of simple when I think about it. First, I did watch the debate although I was loathe to do so, but I'm glad I did. Second, my watching the debate had no impact on my vote as I recognize the greater danger of Trump.
Here is what I saw - a man unprepared for the moment, and a man unequipped to communicate his positions to voters. He cannot summon the language for the moment. I cannot unsee what I saw, and it doesn't matter if Biden had a cold.
Still, this is not about me. However, I did believe this debate was huge, Biden’s chance to properly frame Trump for voters. Within a couple minutes, I understood that Biden can't do it. Now people are telling me that one debate means nothing, shake it off, etc.
But my gut feeling tells me that Biden cannot win in November. Not after that debate, coming on the heels of Trump’s convictions, with our fractured news landscape. My gut tells me that undecided voters were watching in droves and they might not watch again. Biden had the opportunity and blew it, and I am not being ageist here. I would say the same thing if he were 41, 51, or 61. The job currently requires a person who is clear and direct, a person who can explain what is happening, and it is not Joe Biden.
The reality is that Biden had a catastrophic senior moment that will continue to repeat with ever greater frequency as he ages. Obfuscating, "he had a cold," and/or outright denial of the problem will not make his symptoms of old age disappear. As his continual downward spiral has been reported for well over a year, his enablers, starting with Jill, are doing him no favours by propping him up and hoping he has a "good day." If he is having serious lapses today, what will he be like in 2–3 years?
It is time that senior leadership and his inner circle consider what is best for Joe himself and the country writ large by ensuring he retires with a modicum of grace rather than run a probable losing campaign filled with ridicule and inuendo.
Looking back, as Republicans hyperbolically attacked Biden, generating misleading video clips, propagating vile and dishonest characterizations of his behavior, I reacted with giving him too much benefit of the doubt. The Thursday performance revealed how unwise that was. The physical decline had been increasingly obvious, but what I witnessed in the debate was shocking and distressing. 4 more years? I will vote D regardless, but must acknowledge that will be a vote for VP Harris. Fairly or not, I see no evidence she has a base of support. None of this draws in low information voters who may decide the election. What a quandary!
It’s crazy that republicans stuck with Trump, but they at least have a valid excuse - he genuinely, bafflingly, has overwhelming support within the R electorate. That’s not the case on the other side. Dems had all the warning and all the runway to do something about it, and if they had, this thing wouldn’t even be close. Instead they decided to play a game of chicken on the highway at 70mph. Astounding.
I agree the GOP base is the real problem, while it’s the Dem establishment that’s at fault. I thought it was a no brainer that Biden would be replaced but it’s not clear yet and polling may not help. What I expect will happen is that many 2020 Biden voters will just not vote if he remains as the nominee. This will drag down other Democratic candidates
It's actually also a complete act of selfishness for 2020 Biden voters to sit out because he didn't do what they think he should have. I'd have more respect for them if they decided they wanted Trumps horrendous policies and voted that way. But to not vote at all out of petulance- shame on them. I hope you're wrong about that
Petulance? The man is clearly not mentally capable, and his condition is only going to get worse. I plan on voting for someone (I'm an election officer so I feel an oblgation to vote), but unlike last time, it won't be for Biden.
He had a bad night.....unlike trump who had a rant and lie filled night....once again proving how unsuitable he is for the highest public office...or any office....I was saddened with Biden's performance, but I am still voting for him. He is ethical, moral, and has proven himself to the country. So, Biden warts and all, or a LIAR.
No matter how factual the what-about-Trump arguments are, Biden is going to lose if there is not a shift in the polling in his direction in the battleground states (SOON). No matter how fervent we in the Democratic base feel (would vote for a rock over Trump), it is immaterial. A hundred thousand votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin may be all that is relevant here. At this point I don’t see those mercurial folks moving toward Biden.
Biden is flirting with being remembered as the guy who put his pride over the well being of the republic (I refuse to say democracy cause we aren’t one and have never been one). Yes Trump and his cronies are the main villains of this story but history is full of otherwise good people who put their own interests over the well being of others, which allowed evil to win. Is he ok w this being his legacy? Am I way off base here? Lmk friends, I appreciate all of your takes.
I am a life long democrat and have only voted for one Republican in my life, and it was Ford. Didn't vote for Carter as have know too many engineers and they can't see the forest for the trees. Was a trial lawyer for 45 years and the best advice/insight I was ever given was about 40 years ago by a Judge. He said once you are having to explain you have lost. SO i as sick is a loser.That is Biden now. The debate was horrendous and not being able to slap back was the worst. The ultimate open was when Trump said "Back Jobs". Should have said what the Hell do you mean and I am turning my time over to you to explain. Also, the slacked jaw deer in the headlights is all Trump needs to use in adds. "Is this someone who can go up against our enemies". Biden should have checked his ego at the door in 2022 and said as I promised in 2020 I would be a bridge to the future.
I was stunned watching the debate. The lying and malevolent Donald J Trump showed up as expected, but who was that other guy? Here’s the thing…I have lived through one Trump administration, and I cannot bear the thought of living through another. I have lived through a Biden administration as well, and it is a wholly different and better experience. I will vote for a peanut butter sandwich before I put myself in the position of living through Trump again. If Democrats replace Biden, I will vote for that replacement. If he stays on the ticket, I will vote for Biden. This time, I am voting for the (D). And i am absolutely voting.
Most Biden voters will remain loyal, especially if they’re partisan Dems. But many people who voted for him last time will now stay home, or vote for Trump or 3rd party. The Dems should switch Biden out to have a fighting chance in the congressional elections.
When faced with a choice if Trump vs. anyone else, I don’t believe for a minute that previous Biden voters will cast votes for Trump. Or for the Republicans who have revealed themselves to be anti-democratic nutbags. Stay home? Maybe..but that is what the Bernie Bros gave us when Hillary was the candidate. I don’t think any patriotic American wants to hand the election to Trump. Nor will they.
You make fair comments, but you fail to account for the casual voters or the folks who are true swing voters, and you need some of those to win. That category may or may not vote for Trump, but they're not going to turn out for a the guy they see as too infirm for the job. See my broader comment on this point also.
And those “casual voters” weren’t watching the debate.
I’m disappointed in Biden’s performance, but instead of the typical Democratic circular firing squad approach that so many “operatives” are doing right now (why am I not surprised that’s what Chris wants to highlight?), I’d say the Biden campaign needs to change their direction and do it fast!
I’m no pro or pundit, so I can’t say clearly *how* they need to change, but more appearances by Biden, more events (rallies?), get him out there more (maybe at the right time of day?), etc. Make it clear the debate performance was a fluke. Make sure he’s vibrant and engaged.
We know he can do that because we saw him do that at the SOTU.
For the most part I agree with you. I think the best tactic for Joe's campaign at this point is to dilute his debate performance by getting him back out there. Assuming he can do it, he needs to be in unscripted environments. A series of town halls, interviews, etc.
"We know he can do that because we saw him do that at the SOTU."
True, but the SOTU is scripted. I think we all know Joe can give a speech. The question raised by his debate performance is "can he think on his feet."
Yes, many - maybe most - casual voters wouldn't have seen the debate, but they will hear it described in highly unflattering terms. This wasn't just a bad day. It cemented rather than eradicated concerns about Joe's condition. IMO, rallies and cozy interviews can't fix this. He never should have run again. Ds need to be clear-eyed about the best course now to stop the menace Trump presents.
Bullshit. Not one person has left Bidens after the debate. Wish you all Would Stop
Talking.
Exactly right.
Watch Biden, but listen to Trump.
When we hear what he says, the choice is clear.
So instead of the hand wringing the party unite to assure 45 loses? I fear 2016 all over again; Hillary blew off swing states, the Comey letter, Democrats staid home. And what did we get? Are we that stupid as an electorate to repeat recent history and enable him and his thugs, now with a SCOTUS majority, to turn us into a fascist state? Levin on FOX last night was proclaiming that the President is in Stage 5 Dementia (of seven stages). Since when did he become a neurologist? Why isn't the real media covering these lies?
Please do a sanity re-set. Hillary and Kerry won their debates, how did that go?
The event on Thursday night was not critically significant; the Presidency is not a debate tournament. “What we all saw” was a completely insane Donald Trump, while Biden was having a bad spell that passed quickly. We must not allow insane Trump to get near the Oval Office again. Joe will be fine.
We are on the same team, but this is the gaslighting people are referring to. “You don’t have to debate well to be president” welp you do need to be able to formulate complete sentences. And before the presidency, there’s the campaign. Unclear how Biden can make the case for himself because, again, it involves the ability to articulate at least some points. They can roll out surrogates, that’s not going to assuage any concerns from the barely engaged voters who actually decide this election. We should demand better than denying reality a la the GOP. We should demand better than a candidate who invites a collective breath hold every time he speaks. Obligatory “I actually love Joe Biden, I just can no longer go along with the charade” disclaimer
Just stop
Omg
I would like to believe this. But the burden of proof now falls even heavier on President Biden to demonstrate he's up to the job. Fortunately this happened in June and not October.
Then why did Joe Biden agree and push for these debates?
He had a bad spell for 90 minutes when the entire country was watching, when the stakes were at their highest.
That Biden truly in his heart believes that he is up to this doesn't make it so. He thought he could pull off a successful debate as well. Oops!
I believe if you go back you'll see that he was goaded by Trump. Anytime. Any place. It was on truth social so maybe he could have ignored it but felt that it would turn into another Biden in the basement issue
So, when are Democrats actually going to start putting their names on these messages to journalists? Because anonymous complaints aren’t going to change anything. If Democrats want a change at the top of the ticket, they’re going to have to go public.
While the Republican Party is clearly the worse of the two, the Democratic Party is comprised of human beings just the same. And human beings act in the ways humans do; in this case, self-preservation and tribal allegiance are strong motivators to stay silent. It's why most Republicans haven't bucked Trump despite his manifest unfitness. Speaking out publicly in the face of threats and social pressures is the act of a remarkable human being and it wouldn't be remarkable if it was common.
I'd prefer knowing the source of the "insider info". It would make it more impactful. But having said that, I trust Chris and because he trusts the author of this message I think it's important to hear his words.
THEY ARE NOT CHANGING OUT BIDEN. JUST STOP
FOR CHRIST SAKE. OMG
Anonymity equals to fake news
No. It’s not fake news. The chattering class of Democratic pundits and “professionals” are all up in their head over this. My response? Whatever!
We need to get the Biden campaign to change course and do it quickly. They can’t just keep doing the same ol’ same ol’ and think they’re going to get to 270.
Are you saying you saw a Biden Thursday that you honestly believe can handle the office of the Presidency for 4.5 more years? I emphatically did not. What's the course change to address that clear decline?
MAGA says this all the time, and looks where it's gotten us.
A poll this morning showed that 72 percent of the people don't think that Biden has the mental acuity to do the job. So, as bad as another Trump presidency would be, this is a problem.
Stop
Just
Stop
Omg
So you think we should just ignore respected people like Tom Friedman who are calling for Biden to step down and pretend that everything is going to work out? Ok, but if Biden loses, who do you blame?
One aspect of today's political environment is that many people talk about politics only to like-minded people.This is why Trumpers were shocked when he lost: everyone they knew voted for Trump. Right now, many Dems on social media and private email chains are saying things that are true but not reflective of the broader picture: eg,"one debate should not change the fact that Joe has a great record"; "old and competent is better than ignorant and crazy." Here is the broader picture: Ds and high info voters will turn out for Joe. But that's it and that's not enough.I travel in circles that include casual voters or real swing voters.They may or may not vote for Trump, but they are definitely not turning out for Joe. He had a chance to dispel concerns re his age. Instead, he set those concerns in concrete. Campaigns in the past didn't even start till the convention. As Sarah Longwell rightly says, (1)the biggest voting coalition is the anti-Trump vote. Most new Dem candidates would start with that block, which is almost enough to win: (2) nominate Whitmer and Shapiro and you have a great chance to win their two home, swing states and energize women in a year when women's issues are key. It wouldn't be easy, but I think it's possible , and I'm sad to say that - at the moment- I don't know how Joe can recover.
I really appreciate your comment about how campaigns, in the past, didn’t start until the convention. Consider this scenario, and the viewership of the convention.....Whitmer and Shapiro (& I agree with this team) are nominated at the convention for all to see. An open convention with nominations & voting by the state delegates, etc, etc, just doesn’t happen anymore. I remember watching some when I was much younger....they are exciting to watch...just imagine the viewership!!! The fact that Biden “recovered with a coherent scripted the speech the following day” means nothing, At his age the “lapses” in memory and physical limitations can crop up anytime & anywhere. A massive “Thank You, Joe” send off can become part of the convention. REALITY has got to take precedence NOW.
Exactly right
Excellent point about the political bubble people live in. For those of us who are truly engaged and constantly fed an algorithm that aligns with our beliefs, it's difficult to imagine how many people hold views completely opposed to ours. It's even more difficult to wrap our heads around those millions of 'low info' voters, the people who are spending little to no time thinking about the things that are giving us sleepless nights. How do we reach them? If the Democratic pols haven't figured out how yet, I'm afraid they never will.
The Rs have pulled the greatest trick in memory . They own rural America and working class whites by stoking fears re social change and immigrants , but they do nothing for the those people. They win by building upon that base with folks who vote to keep taxes and regulation low. We need a D leader who can explain all that and how D policies benefit the folks you reference. Joe can’t . Whitmer, Shapiro, among others, can. That’s how they won in swing states
It's only been a couple days. Do you think maybe as a country we should take a deep breath and take some time before we make such a significant decision?
Yes, overreacting is not good. So is failing to react when action is needed. Joe had a chance to dispel concerns about his age. Instead, he made that the central issue in the campaign, and it’s an issue we can’t win. Dems will turn out for Joe, but we can’t now get enough swing votes or states to win. See my longer comment re a path forward.
I'm just objecting to the shoot first ask questions later mentality that seems to be happening because it drives the media clicks. Okay. Everyone's made their point. Some people think he needs to quit. Now he's got a decision to make
Omg what malarkey. You think independents want Trump. No. They will
Vote for
Biden. You are all
Shameful. Biden hasn’t lost any voters.
It’s true that many Independents won’t vote for Trump. But too many will stay home. If you just socialize with hardcore Ds, you’d think Biden will be fine. I have a broader circle. And Biden’s condition is a gating issue for many. Just look at the polls. Ask yourself how a POTUS with a great record is losing or neck and neck with a know-nothing , criminal who failed as POTUS.
NO, NO, NO!
It's not 2 days. Not 2 weeks, not 2 months, not even 2 years.
Those of us who work or live among MAGA folks know it has been 4 years of constant non-stop SLEEPY JOE, BRANDON SUCKS, JOE DID THAT STICKERS, DELIVERANCE PICTURES, ETC. NON-FREAKING STOP.
The indies, those on the margins, were always going to determine the 2024 election. They heard all the trumpf noise, they saw the chaos from MAGA, and they listened to us assure them everything was going to be FINE.
Every pundit said the same thing: Biden has to come out and be sane and normal and clear and lucid for 10-15 minutes and it would be over. Easy task for Joe, the most experienced debater in modern history.
He failed it. Miserably. Horribly. I don't care how well he did the next day. On the DAY it counted, he failed.
It's over for Joe. Sad ending for a remarkable man and career. But it's over, whether you or any lifelong dem's want to admit it.
I'm betting he is out by Tuesday.
Unfortunately for me I also live among maga folks. I know what they're saying. I'm also not a lifelong Dem and it's kind of interesting that you think that's an accusation you can make to dismiss my opinion. The way forward is not going to be easy no matter what the decision ends up being. I've listened to plenty of other people's opinions besides just this page. I'm anti-trump all the way, however it works out
A few things:
1). The fact that she or he fears retribution from Biden people shows this is an unreasonable, hysterical person. Dems are not the party of violence, MAGA is.
2.) To hint that you would betray your party by not voting for the selected candidate as a delegate means you do not deserve the trust we have given you.
3.). Yes, I agree the debate was not good. But it was not good for either candidate and refusing to acknowledge that is shameful.
4.). We know from experience that MAGA now seem to outnumber traditional members of the GOP. We are literally in a fight against fascism. WAKE UP!!!
To me, this is why Trump has the better chance to win the presidency.
1) Retribution is not only violence. It is taking influence and power from someone, no violence needed.
2) Going "against " your party to vote for someone who you think isn't capable of doing the job FOUR more years, is not betrayal to the betterment of the country.
3) No one is denying that Trump had a bad debate, but it doesn't matter because the Biden inability to articulate clear thoughts overshadowed Trump's lies and misdirection of every response.
This is what concerns me so much about the Democrats. Biden did bad, but Trump is worse. If people thought Trump is so bad, why is he even close to leading the polls. In my mind it's because people don't trust Biden to make it FOUR more years. And unfortunately the 90 minutes on Thursday didn't demonstrate he can. Right now the binary choice is Trump or Biden, but it's not too late to change to someone who could challenge Trump on Stage, and not only at rallies with a teleprompter.
Because half of our country doesn't think Trump is bad! They like what he is saying.
This is the thing. We can't keep telling ourselves what we already know as if we're trying to convince ourselves to vote for Biden. As Bill Maher says, I'd vote for Joe Biden's head in a jar of blue liquid over Trump. But we aren't the ones that need convincing. It's the ones that don't just think Trump is bad - some really don't know, as scary as notion as that is. It's not about what pro-Biden and anti-Trump voters think; it's about everyone else that's not in those groups that matters now. If they think Biden's debate is disqualifying, that's all it takes.
Well, I must lead a sheltered life because I'm in Wisconsin and I don't know anyone who is undecided. My friends and family who live in the big city are all firmly Democratic and my neighbors in the place I live are firmly Republican. To me it's more about turnout in Milwaukee than it is being undecided. And that's where the party needs to make it super clear to people who would sit it out that it's going to hurt them in the long run
Exactly! And the exact same argument the GOP is making with Trump: “Don’t believe what you see and hear.” Reminds me of The Wizard of Oz: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”
I angry, frustrated and sad. Feel like we’re heading towards major disaster and we all see it coming.
It is really kind of simple when I think about it. First, I did watch the debate although I was loathe to do so, but I'm glad I did. Second, my watching the debate had no impact on my vote as I recognize the greater danger of Trump.
Here is what I saw - a man unprepared for the moment, and a man unequipped to communicate his positions to voters. He cannot summon the language for the moment. I cannot unsee what I saw, and it doesn't matter if Biden had a cold.
Still, this is not about me. However, I did believe this debate was huge, Biden’s chance to properly frame Trump for voters. Within a couple minutes, I understood that Biden can't do it. Now people are telling me that one debate means nothing, shake it off, etc.
But my gut feeling tells me that Biden cannot win in November. Not after that debate, coming on the heels of Trump’s convictions, with our fractured news landscape. My gut tells me that undecided voters were watching in droves and they might not watch again. Biden had the opportunity and blew it, and I am not being ageist here. I would say the same thing if he were 41, 51, or 61. The job currently requires a person who is clear and direct, a person who can explain what is happening, and it is not Joe Biden.
The reality is that Biden had a catastrophic senior moment that will continue to repeat with ever greater frequency as he ages. Obfuscating, "he had a cold," and/or outright denial of the problem will not make his symptoms of old age disappear. As his continual downward spiral has been reported for well over a year, his enablers, starting with Jill, are doing him no favours by propping him up and hoping he has a "good day." If he is having serious lapses today, what will he be like in 2–3 years?
It is time that senior leadership and his inner circle consider what is best for Joe himself and the country writ large by ensuring he retires with a modicum of grace rather than run a probable losing campaign filled with ridicule and inuendo.
Looking back, as Republicans hyperbolically attacked Biden, generating misleading video clips, propagating vile and dishonest characterizations of his behavior, I reacted with giving him too much benefit of the doubt. The Thursday performance revealed how unwise that was. The physical decline had been increasingly obvious, but what I witnessed in the debate was shocking and distressing. 4 more years? I will vote D regardless, but must acknowledge that will be a vote for VP Harris. Fairly or not, I see no evidence she has a base of support. None of this draws in low information voters who may decide the election. What a quandary!
It’s crazy that republicans stuck with Trump, but they at least have a valid excuse - he genuinely, bafflingly, has overwhelming support within the R electorate. That’s not the case on the other side. Dems had all the warning and all the runway to do something about it, and if they had, this thing wouldn’t even be close. Instead they decided to play a game of chicken on the highway at 70mph. Astounding.
I agree the GOP base is the real problem, while it’s the Dem establishment that’s at fault. I thought it was a no brainer that Biden would be replaced but it’s not clear yet and polling may not help. What I expect will happen is that many 2020 Biden voters will just not vote if he remains as the nominee. This will drag down other Democratic candidates
It’s a complete act of selfishness by Biden
It's actually also a complete act of selfishness for 2020 Biden voters to sit out because he didn't do what they think he should have. I'd have more respect for them if they decided they wanted Trumps horrendous policies and voted that way. But to not vote at all out of petulance- shame on them. I hope you're wrong about that
Petulance? The man is clearly not mentally capable, and his condition is only going to get worse. I plan on voting for someone (I'm an election officer so I feel an oblgation to vote), but unlike last time, it won't be for Biden.
He had a bad night.....unlike trump who had a rant and lie filled night....once again proving how unsuitable he is for the highest public office...or any office....I was saddened with Biden's performance, but I am still voting for him. He is ethical, moral, and has proven himself to the country. So, Biden warts and all, or a LIAR.
No matter how factual the what-about-Trump arguments are, Biden is going to lose if there is not a shift in the polling in his direction in the battleground states (SOON). No matter how fervent we in the Democratic base feel (would vote for a rock over Trump), it is immaterial. A hundred thousand votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin may be all that is relevant here. At this point I don’t see those mercurial folks moving toward Biden.
Malarkey.
Biden is flirting with being remembered as the guy who put his pride over the well being of the republic (I refuse to say democracy cause we aren’t one and have never been one). Yes Trump and his cronies are the main villains of this story but history is full of otherwise good people who put their own interests over the well being of others, which allowed evil to win. Is he ok w this being his legacy? Am I way off base here? Lmk friends, I appreciate all of your takes.
You are off base.
I am a life long democrat and have only voted for one Republican in my life, and it was Ford. Didn't vote for Carter as have know too many engineers and they can't see the forest for the trees. Was a trial lawyer for 45 years and the best advice/insight I was ever given was about 40 years ago by a Judge. He said once you are having to explain you have lost. SO i as sick is a loser.That is Biden now. The debate was horrendous and not being able to slap back was the worst. The ultimate open was when Trump said "Back Jobs". Should have said what the Hell do you mean and I am turning my time over to you to explain. Also, the slacked jaw deer in the headlights is all Trump needs to use in adds. "Is this someone who can go up against our enemies". Biden should have checked his ego at the door in 2022 and said as I promised in 2020 I would be a bridge to the future.
"Slack jawed deer in the headlights" is precisely the description I used today. Devastating look! The dominant ego has no nobility.
Hogwash