Mace knows that no one ever sees private parts in a woman’s bathroom since everything is done behind closed door cubicles. Always. No one ever sees any junk unless they’re in the bathroom with Mace seeing her - a colossal piece of junk.
Yes, it is the case for women's locker rooms. Every one that I've been in has had individual shower and dressing cubicles. The "Porky's" style group shower is more the exception than the norm, and there's generally not a lot of naked strutting going on. Sorry to kill the fantasy, guys, but hopefully the context helps.
After asking her how she suffered through the other transgender staff all these years, I would suggest that Mace take on the job of constructing a third locker room for the people who upset her; that way all the kind, democratic thinking people will have two locker rooms and the nasty, autocratic thinking people will have just one.
Democrats shouldn’t give her one second of attention over this. The only way to get through this onslaught is by responding in ways that show them for what they are so the ignorant people who voted for Trump will learn what our schools never taught them - how democracy works. (Hear teacher whistleblowers at WhiteChalkCrime.com if you want to understand those ignorant people.) Let our “leaders’” obnoxious statements and acts be lessons by remaining calm.
She is definitely protesting too much. Maybe this is her ploy to be known by the incoming party? Is she planning to go into the stall and watch? Otherwise, you’re right, you see nothing. What has she done for the people she represents? Some people ALWAYS need someone to hate.
I 100% agree that there should be a gender neutral locker room. However, it’s important to note that often even when such a space is available, some transgender women will still want to use the ladies because they want to be ‘affirmed’.
What Democrats need to do better is helping the extreme positions that make conservatives uncomfortable be more democratic about their needs. No one gets everything they want. Everyone needs to compromise so it isn’t an all or nothing world leaving half of us miserable.
I agree compromise is essential. So is a sane, rational discussion. I don't know where I land on some of these issues either. But I do know I stand against the extreme hate we are now seeing.
The word compromise implies both sides coming to the table and being willing to... compromise. Republicans have whipped up such a fury about transgender people (and they are people) that I fear it is no longer possible for them to compromise. Why would anyone be "miserable" about who is using a restroom? The transgender bathroom issue is *not* the same, and I realize that, but this furor is reminiscent of half the country being miserable when black people were allowed into restrooms.
And EVERY Democrat in office has taken the Everything position, based on their support of the Equality Act, which gives trans activists what they want: instantaneous unquestionable gender self-ID.
Where do you want to be allowed to poop when the urge hits you at the mall, doctor's office, work, church, community center, museums, or other places?
Given the hostility, threatening rhetoric, and sometimes violent actions that people who don't want trans people to exist, let alone piss in the stall next to them, engage in... why would any sane trans person want to go into the bathroom of their birth sex?
They want to do their business. Not out themselves to strangers or co-workers who don't need to know that they're trans. Doing that would be a great way for a trans person to get beaten up or killed.
Ya wanna protect women and underage girls? Don't vote for anyone in the GOP/MAGA cult. Here QAnon has insisted it wants to root out the pedos, yet it just voted a bunch into office.
And you're worried about who's going to bathroom or changing their clothes in an area you can't even see into without being creepy.
When one has endured an unfortunate lifetime of knowing in their heart and mind that their exterior didn't match their true selves and they finally have been able to correct that, I guess you can say affirmation but that's not really it because it's not about other people's feelings.
I remember when gay men who came out of the closet were chided by other men in the men’s locker room, not welcome there, and at times shown outright hostility. Not sure but assume trans women who still have men’s parts may choose to avoid similar treatment by changing in women’s locker rooms. These are issues we need to figure out. Gender fluidity is as old as the Bible, I think it’s about time we start to figure things out as a people hood without as they say casting the first stone…..
I don't know how to solve the bathroom issue, though at California rest stops they often have a "Family" restroom, which solves the problem of differing genders needing to accompany a family member of either gender to the loo. In this time of expanding gender identities we need to adapt. We have Special Olympics for the disabled. The obvious solution to trans people competing in sports is to initiate a third category. As well as Mens' and Women's sports, we need a Special Cases grouping.
Traveling around the country (enjoy road trips!) i see more and more non-gender specific rest rooms in restaurants, movie theaters (!), etc. You’ll see a M/F on the door, and it’s an individual space (toilet and sink). A theater in Texas had a “Restrooms” sign over an entry way. Inside there was a row of private toilet cubicles, maybe 15 or 20 (like an airplane) with an occupied/vacant sign when the door is locked or open. No sink, the sinks were outside and shared by men and women. Interesting, at one end of this space was a section designated “Men” that just had urinals (not in public view) with dividers for privacy. Never saw anything like this. Wanted to take pictures, but you know, was in TX, didn’t want to get shot for being some kind of perv!
While not a trans person, I am a member of the LGBTQ+ community. I also have a sibling who is as well. I would not say you need to be a member of the community to understand basic human decency and kindness to that community. No member of the community is looking for special rights or elevated respect over and above anyone else. It is about equality and that is it. I honestly do not care if someone is transgendered or not. It has no bearing on my life or anyone else's but said individual. Leave people alone to live the life they want. A transgender woman using a woman's restroom is not a danger to anyone. In fact, I can venture that every time a trans woman uses a female designated restroom they are the ones looking over their shoulder to see if anyone is going to harass them. There is no evidence to say a transgender person is more a danger to children. That is a lie to rally up the conservative base and have a group to fear and campaign against. They use the black community, the gay community, or any other marginalized group. It is so disgusting, tired, and quite honestly sinful and I am not even a religious person here.
Well said. Didn't McBride say that she would follow their rule and go ahead and use the men's bathroom? Is that really going to resolve the issue, or will it just make the men uncomfortable? You can't have a blanket rule to cover all situations. I have a transgender son who is 27. If he were forced to start using the women's bathroom now, it would create chaos.
Changing rooms and showers are a different situation and not even a valid comparison. You don’t strip down naked in a bathroom. Also, does it really matter? Anyone who goes into those rooms knows they are getting naked and that people may see them. In those situations do you care who is seeing you naked? I think a bigger problem is anyone trying to sexual use those spaces. anyone can be ogling your naked body there, regardless of what gender they are born with or present as.
If you want to advocate for abolishing all single-sex spaces, you're free to do so. I think a large majority of people would disagree, that a large majority would want to have single-sex spaces, especially where nudity is involved. If we actually lived in a democracy (we do not), we could put it to a popular vote.
But the Biden-Harris Ed Dept and EEOC have issued rules, with the force of law, that say that any boy or man can go into any girls' or women's single-sex space if he claims to have, at that moment, a "female identity". Nobody got to vote on these.
I was not advocating for single sex spaces. I explained why I thought that was a different scenario and was being facetious. But my point was that regardless of gender, there are folks who would be in that locker room seeing you naked and perhaps checking you out naked. Cis males as well as trans males.
They're still men. Sex in mammals is fixed at conception. It cannot be changed later by any means, including amputation of body parts for cosmetic purposes.
They're no longer "men." They are people with XY chromosomes at birth. Assigned male at birth. But by the time they're comfortable entering a woman's bathroom they are on enough estrogen to make a difference in their appearance. Not everyone can afford bottom surgery or even want to have it, but for many, erections good enough for sex ain't happenin'.
Trans people have been using the Capitol bathrooms for years. Nothing has happened. But now, Nasty Nancy has decided to be mean and insulting and hurtful to a new Representative. While she's supporting Gaetz, Trump, and the rest of the sex offenders she's claiming to protect women from... Sarah McBride? Seriously?
Some trans women (and trans men) look absolutely like cis women and men. Do you honestly want some muscle bound dude with a beard and bald spot going into the Women's bathroom because they still have a vagina? How is that going to be determined? Have everyone flash their junk upon entry?
Thank you, Chris, for this thoughtful post. I am an 80 year old transgender woman who knew she was different by age 6 and also knew she had to hide her knowledge and beliefs even from herself. I forced myself to live as though I were a cisgender guy for over 50 years, suffering with depression that was only lifted when I finally came out to myself in 2005, and publicly in 2008. I had to pay for my own gender confirming surgery in 2013 because the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services prohibited such payment, but went on to play a small role in convincing CMS to lift the prohibition in 2014.
Transgender people face a challenging situation in a world where even our basic existence is denied, even as many thousands like me have lives that are in effect facts on the ground demonstrating that we are real. Science does not know exactly how gender identity comes about, though it seems clear there is a close connection to our biology. But like intersex people whose bodies defy easy classification as male or female, and gay and lesbian people whose sexual attractions defy easy conclusions about DNA and sexual orientation, transgender people are likewise a real variation on what it means to be human. We deserve the same respect and human rights as everyone else.
In the future we as a society will need to figure out more nuanced questions like how to deal with the sports issue, but bathrooms hysteria is wrong and harmful to everyone. Transgender women have been using women's bathrooms in states like Oregon where it has been legal for years without a rash of sexual assaults against cisgender women. And how will authorities know if someone is transgender if they are not out publicly? Will the capitol police be allowed to do an invasive visual exploration of an individual's body if someone like Mace makes a complaint?
I have volunteered as a patient helping medical staff improve health care for everyone, and as an employee onboarding, training and mentoring other such volunteers. I will continue as an independent writer seeking a better world where common sense science helps us figure out how to do that, and how to help our country be better at living up to its lofty values. I went on the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom in 1963 for that reason, and I will never stop doing so.
Until I read “Inverse Cowgirl” my knowledge of intersex was, other than mythology, limited. After hearing the author on a podcast, I wanted to understand what life was like when one is assigned a gender by someone at the birth of another and the impact on so many lives.
DNA is so complex. More is learned as different tools are created and minds like daVinci’s [watching “Leonardo”, the new Ken Burns film on PBS reawakened my marvel at his great capacity of curiosity to seek more knowledge and how he did it] rise to meet the times. Where is that curiosity now?
Other than Rep-elect McBride, who does Mace or the others know to listen to their experience? Or anyone who believes they just aren’t like “what we are programmed to be” based assigned gender? Girls good at sports or those who liked tree climbing were called “tomboys” to differ them from the expected behaviors.
A friend’s not-intersex-grandchild was assigned a gender at birth and from all I know, never ever believed they [it’s easy once you get an old English teacher or editor out of your head] were the assigned gender. The rejection of clothes put on them when they could discern and express a difference & preference was strong. Now, still early school grades, they dress as they want to be known. Later - much later - different therapy and eventually, surgery.
There’s lots I don’t understand - still to this day as a person born in the late ‘40s - how televisions can get an image on screen!
If the US House tolerated Matt Gaetz’s showing to colleagues while huddled in a corner of the House, images of his sexual conquests and didn’t move away or report it, Rep McBride, if she’d not run as a publicly transgender person, could just have freshened her make up where she’d chose.
Thank you, Joan. for your thoughtful approach to your friend’s child. I also knew nothing about the experience of being born intersex, although a couple of people at my local Unitarian church told me they were after I came out as transgender and became known for telling my own story as a transgender woman.
I think kindness and curiosity as you showed are important in these situations.
I 100% agree with your preamble. I may be slightly more progressive on the issues of sports/bathrooms, but it is still not clear to me. And, I 100% appreciate you being transparent about you not being on the leading edge of the lived experiences (as I have also not been). I'm seeking to be open to understanding, and supportive of everyone. As you seem to be...still sorting out what that means.
One thing that has occurred to me throughout this period of societal debate, and highlighted for me reading your post: I never hear anyone express fear of persons born female entering a male bathroom. There is an inherent presumption of male dominance in the dialog, and that we must protect females. And, what, other than custom and common sense, is keeping nefarious males out of female bathrooms to date? Nothing.
What I wish we had as a norm was nothing but universal bathrooms, whether that be 2 or 3 (or more) separate bathrooms that anyone can use, or a common area for sinks with separate toilet rooms off that common area (I've experienced in other countries, and no one seemed to be concerned about the presence of either/any gender in the common area).
I don't know what to do about sports. That's a legitimate quandry to me.
She is a horrible, horrible woman. And now she's upset that people are being mean to her because she's suffering some sort of PTSD. It's too much. Beyond McBride, though, this new policy puts every other transgender Congressional aide, staff member and even visitor into a quandary. Which bathroom do they use?
What a complete waste of her constituents’ time. Let’s hope she is voted out soon. Meanwhile, it makes sense to me that going forward all public bathrooms should be unisex. I’m sure they can be designed appropriately to accommodate us all.
Chris, I am your senior by a bit but work with a lot of 20 -something engineers. I have gotten around messing up on they/them by using someone’s name but this next generation is awesome and just uses whatever pronouns needed without a thought or a complaint. To them it just is how you do it, not some burden. I a hopeful for our future.
Thanks for the part on Trans rights. I would guess that most Americans are in the same boat. Personally I don't want people to be hurt (violence against trans is really bad) and to be discriminated against. That said the discussion is not pure black and white. Can we have a nuanced and science based discussion or do we just yell at each other? (guess what both sides are as crazy on the black and white aspects of this issue)... I bet we just yell. 😭
The idea that someone can simply change their sex by willing it is certainly not based in evidentiary science. I, for one, do not think that transwomen are women.
I think you're misunderstanding or misapplying the role of science in this discussion. For example, there is an entire field of medicine devoted to intersex, and it is not a psychological subspecialty (although, obviously, that's part of it); it's biological and surgical medicine. As a retired physician, I remember having to learn about the incredible nuance involved in sexual and gender development--biological, hormonal, anatomical--and the one thing that the science has taught me is that it is a deeply complex process, and there is a lot more to it than we understand even today. In other words, anyone who tells you there are only two genders has no idea what they're talking about, scientifically speaking.
Like Chris, I'm trying to work my way through this issue in an inclusive way. Trans people have been with us throughout human history. I don't think they are trying to "change their sex by willing it." They are people who deeply identify with one gender but find themselves in the body of the other (I'm being binary for simplicity). These folks didn't choose their internal or external states.
Listen to the podcast, Tested, to learn how this is more complex than you think. Sports authorities definitely do not have it figured out. Far from it.
Yes they do, a trans individual has already won a gold medal in women’s soccer and nobody even cares because the IOC just used common sense to determine eligibility for the women’s division—they looked at Quinn’s birth certificate.
I don't watch soccer, so I don't know the answer to the question I'm about to ask: Do they give out Olympic medals to only one person on a soccer team or does the entire team get the medal/medals?
I appreciate your thoughts, and agree that Mace is just a dumpster fire of a human being. That said, I would say that, for me, allowing trans people to use the bathrooms of that match their identity is not a complex issue. Not that it should even be necessary, but plenty of studies exist to show that trans people do not pose a threat to cisgender people in bathrooms. On the other hand -- and this shouldn't be shocking -- trans people FACE violence with terrifying regularity. To suggest this is to protect women is offensive -- the only women who would likely face violence would be trans women. Which undoubtedly is something that a disgusting transphobe would like Mace quite a bit.
As a former resident of her district I want to say AMEN!!!
She has shown over and over again that she is willing to sell her soul to the highest (or lowest) bidder! In that she is following n the path of SC senior senator. Integrity is not their hallmark!
If I want to get really in the gutter with Nancy, I just want to ask, "Who is going to be stationed at the door to check?"
One other thing, here. Just how many folks are we really talking about here? I would posit that the number of people sitting around their kitchen tables trying to make ends meet far outweighs the number of trans people. Seems to me like McBride's focus is far better than Mace's.
" Save Women's Sports, an organization advocating for banning transgender athletes from competing in girls' sports, identified only five transgender athletes competing on girls' teams in school sports for grades K through 12."
"Politico reported that four transgender athletes out of 85,000 athletes competed in sports at state high schools. Only one of the athletes was competing in girls' sports."
Precisely my point, thanks for the references. There were laws voted on in Utah - targeting 4 athletes, I think. and yet, this seems to be the issue most worthy of the focus of their attention. They are targeting kids who have already had a rough row to hoe. Just so sad.
The one thing I would really like explained about this Trans Panic is the motivation for a male becoming a female over the grand prize of women's sports. Because it's kinda ironic that top star female athletes are paid peanuts, have to have second jobs and are disrespected regularly in comparison to men's in sports but in America we all think there are actual men who want to change their gender to gain an advantage for what? So they can then become the most murdered and attacked minority group and win a local girls track meet? It's so strange to me we always have opinions but no logic about what we are debating.
Wow disc golf and darts my god the horror. The vast majority of these examples are not even sports man they are games in other countries and this proves my point you don't need to pass laws and discriminate against the 1% transgender population in America to save international disc golf. Thanks but no thanks. How about all of you who care so very deeply about saving girls sports start paying them fairly
That's it. That's the issue here. Great job Nancy.
Let's call it what it is.
I don't use the ladies room unless its an emergency. But one thing I can tell you for certain is that gals don't pee in public. (I know, another Rocket Man revelation)
So whether she likes it or not, this is about what thing they are using to pee. Unlike the guys, where we stand next to each other like cattle, the ladies have way more privacy.
I share the same feelings as most of us. Biological men should NOT be competing against women in any sports competition.
But going to the bathroom? C'mon Ms. Mace, you can't be that much of a prude. Actually you have gone on record multiple times bragging about all kinds of sex stuff that probably should be private. We get it, you have an active sex life.
So why on God's green earth are you crazy upset that you are going be in the stall next to someone who is using a different part to pee? Does this affect your life so much? We know you've seen plenty of men, it's not like you don't know what they look like.
OMG, there's a penis in here. C'mon girls, let's go!
I got a serious question. Hear me out.
You really think the Trans congressperson is gonna walk into the ladies locker room in the Congressional gym with her unit hanging out? You don't think we have publicly humiliated them enough?
I just don't get it. They say they are the party of family values.
She/He/They is someones kid. You know, part of a family.
If She/He/Them was YOUR kid, would you treat them this way?
I know, I know, YOUR kid would never even THINK of being trans. OK, got it.
But they are someones kid. And that scares the crap out of me that so many folks would treat someones kid so badly.
Here's the problem Dark, and if the last election didn't teach us, nothing will, a whole bunch of folks are tired of being offended about everything. Since I wasn't seeking your validation, I'm fine with you being unvalidated about me. The entire American hang-up with nudity and sex is going to be the end of us. The trans issue is so small and minor, we can learn to deal with it or let it tear us apart. As the congressperson from DE stated, she didn't come to congress to talk about her sexuality, she came to solve peoples problems. I believe her.
I'm not ignoring them. It was all I heard about for weeks. That and undocumented criminals. I did the research. About 21,000 murders in the USA annually. About 70 done by undocumented immigrants. That's less than 1%. Yet they scared folks. Nancy is scaring women that they're gonna see a penis. We got to stop this crap. Thank you!
57 year old white male here. Like Chris, I too struggle with the same questions he has regarding trans issues. One thing I do not struggle with is that everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. Also, mind your own damn business in the bathroom, locker room, etc.
to quote a gay friend who I respect...Mace is threatend because McBride is more woman than she'll ever be and more man than she'll ever get...
Yes, men make SO much better women than women themselves do! Dylan Mulvaney is the best woman EVER!!! https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney
And Isla Bryson!!! You GO girl!!! That pink hoodie ROCKS!!! https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-64796926
So glad that this powerful comment has gotten so many likes!!!
Yes indeed! McBride is more of a woman than Mace ever will be.
Mace knows that no one ever sees private parts in a woman’s bathroom since everything is done behind closed door cubicles. Always. No one ever sees any junk unless they’re in the bathroom with Mace seeing her - a colossal piece of junk.
Not the case for the locker room, though.
Yes, it is the case for women's locker rooms. Every one that I've been in has had individual shower and dressing cubicles. The "Porky's" style group shower is more the exception than the norm, and there's generally not a lot of naked strutting going on. Sorry to kill the fantasy, guys, but hopefully the context helps.
After asking her how she suffered through the other transgender staff all these years, I would suggest that Mace take on the job of constructing a third locker room for the people who upset her; that way all the kind, democratic thinking people will have two locker rooms and the nasty, autocratic thinking people will have just one.
Democrats shouldn’t give her one second of attention over this. The only way to get through this onslaught is by responding in ways that show them for what they are so the ignorant people who voted for Trump will learn what our schools never taught them - how democracy works. (Hear teacher whistleblowers at WhiteChalkCrime.com if you want to understand those ignorant people.) Let our “leaders’” obnoxious statements and acts be lessons by remaining calm.
She is definitely protesting too much. Maybe this is her ploy to be known by the incoming party? Is she planning to go into the stall and watch? Otherwise, you’re right, you see nothing. What has she done for the people she represents? Some people ALWAYS need someone to hate.
I 100% agree that there should be a gender neutral locker room. However, it’s important to note that often even when such a space is available, some transgender women will still want to use the ladies because they want to be ‘affirmed’.
What Democrats need to do better is helping the extreme positions that make conservatives uncomfortable be more democratic about their needs. No one gets everything they want. Everyone needs to compromise so it isn’t an all or nothing world leaving half of us miserable.
I agree compromise is essential. So is a sane, rational discussion. I don't know where I land on some of these issues either. But I do know I stand against the extreme hate we are now seeing.
The word compromise implies both sides coming to the table and being willing to... compromise. Republicans have whipped up such a fury about transgender people (and they are people) that I fear it is no longer possible for them to compromise. Why would anyone be "miserable" about who is using a restroom? The transgender bathroom issue is *not* the same, and I realize that, but this furor is reminiscent of half the country being miserable when black people were allowed into restrooms.
Well put - and look now we have integrated schools - how dare they - let's treat folks as we expect to be treated -
Oh, I agree but the transgender lobby has generally taken the EON (Everything Or Nothing) position.
And EVERY Democrat in office has taken the Everything position, based on their support of the Equality Act, which gives trans activists what they want: instantaneous unquestionable gender self-ID.
Anyone who takes that position is equally wrong whether from the left or right.
Where do you want to be allowed to poop when the urge hits you at the mall, doctor's office, work, church, community center, museums, or other places?
Given the hostility, threatening rhetoric, and sometimes violent actions that people who don't want trans people to exist, let alone piss in the stall next to them, engage in... why would any sane trans person want to go into the bathroom of their birth sex?
They want to do their business. Not out themselves to strangers or co-workers who don't need to know that they're trans. Doing that would be a great way for a trans person to get beaten up or killed.
Ya wanna protect women and underage girls? Don't vote for anyone in the GOP/MAGA cult. Here QAnon has insisted it wants to root out the pedos, yet it just voted a bunch into office.
And you're worried about who's going to bathroom or changing their clothes in an area you can't even see into without being creepy.
Maybe because the Maces of the world want their hatred to be "affirmed".
"Affirmed"? With quotation marks, no less!
When one has endured an unfortunate lifetime of knowing in their heart and mind that their exterior didn't match their true selves and they finally have been able to correct that, I guess you can say affirmation but that's not really it because it's not about other people's feelings.
I remember when gay men who came out of the closet were chided by other men in the men’s locker room, not welcome there, and at times shown outright hostility. Not sure but assume trans women who still have men’s parts may choose to avoid similar treatment by changing in women’s locker rooms. These are issues we need to figure out. Gender fluidity is as old as the Bible, I think it’s about time we start to figure things out as a people hood without as they say casting the first stone…..
I don't know how to solve the bathroom issue, though at California rest stops they often have a "Family" restroom, which solves the problem of differing genders needing to accompany a family member of either gender to the loo. In this time of expanding gender identities we need to adapt. We have Special Olympics for the disabled. The obvious solution to trans people competing in sports is to initiate a third category. As well as Mens' and Women's sports, we need a Special Cases grouping.
Traveling around the country (enjoy road trips!) i see more and more non-gender specific rest rooms in restaurants, movie theaters (!), etc. You’ll see a M/F on the door, and it’s an individual space (toilet and sink). A theater in Texas had a “Restrooms” sign over an entry way. Inside there was a row of private toilet cubicles, maybe 15 or 20 (like an airplane) with an occupied/vacant sign when the door is locked or open. No sink, the sinks were outside and shared by men and women. Interesting, at one end of this space was a section designated “Men” that just had urinals (not in public view) with dividers for privacy. Never saw anything like this. Wanted to take pictures, but you know, was in TX, didn’t want to get shot for being some kind of perv!
And standing at the common sinks, you know who's most likely to make an inappropriate remark to me, a female? Yep, a man. Still a man problem.
While not a trans person, I am a member of the LGBTQ+ community. I also have a sibling who is as well. I would not say you need to be a member of the community to understand basic human decency and kindness to that community. No member of the community is looking for special rights or elevated respect over and above anyone else. It is about equality and that is it. I honestly do not care if someone is transgendered or not. It has no bearing on my life or anyone else's but said individual. Leave people alone to live the life they want. A transgender woman using a woman's restroom is not a danger to anyone. In fact, I can venture that every time a trans woman uses a female designated restroom they are the ones looking over their shoulder to see if anyone is going to harass them. There is no evidence to say a transgender person is more a danger to children. That is a lie to rally up the conservative base and have a group to fear and campaign against. They use the black community, the gay community, or any other marginalized group. It is so disgusting, tired, and quite honestly sinful and I am not even a religious person here.
Well said. Didn't McBride say that she would follow their rule and go ahead and use the men's bathroom? Is that really going to resolve the issue, or will it just make the men uncomfortable? You can't have a blanket rule to cover all situations. I have a transgender son who is 27. If he were forced to start using the women's bathroom now, it would create chaos.
I say make all bathrooms gender neutral. Then see what she has to complain about next.
Next they'll want us to have unisex bathrooms in our homes! :)
an outrage!
Very good!
The Capitol also has changing rooms and showers for Members. What's your position on those?
Changing rooms and showers are a different situation and not even a valid comparison. You don’t strip down naked in a bathroom. Also, does it really matter? Anyone who goes into those rooms knows they are getting naked and that people may see them. In those situations do you care who is seeing you naked? I think a bigger problem is anyone trying to sexual use those spaces. anyone can be ogling your naked body there, regardless of what gender they are born with or present as.
If you want to advocate for abolishing all single-sex spaces, you're free to do so. I think a large majority of people would disagree, that a large majority would want to have single-sex spaces, especially where nudity is involved. If we actually lived in a democracy (we do not), we could put it to a popular vote.
But the Biden-Harris Ed Dept and EEOC have issued rules, with the force of law, that say that any boy or man can go into any girls' or women's single-sex space if he claims to have, at that moment, a "female identity". Nobody got to vote on these.
I was not advocating for single sex spaces. I explained why I thought that was a different scenario and was being facetious. But my point was that regardless of gender, there are folks who would be in that locker room seeing you naked and perhaps checking you out naked. Cis males as well as trans males.
While everyone is playing the "what about" game... what about trans women who have had bottom surgery and no longer have a penis?
They're still men. Sex in mammals is fixed at conception. It cannot be changed later by any means, including amputation of body parts for cosmetic purposes.
They're no longer "men." They are people with XY chromosomes at birth. Assigned male at birth. But by the time they're comfortable entering a woman's bathroom they are on enough estrogen to make a difference in their appearance. Not everyone can afford bottom surgery or even want to have it, but for many, erections good enough for sex ain't happenin'.
Trans people have been using the Capitol bathrooms for years. Nothing has happened. But now, Nasty Nancy has decided to be mean and insulting and hurtful to a new Representative. While she's supporting Gaetz, Trump, and the rest of the sex offenders she's claiming to protect women from... Sarah McBride? Seriously?
Some trans women (and trans men) look absolutely like cis women and men. Do you honestly want some muscle bound dude with a beard and bald spot going into the Women's bathroom because they still have a vagina? How is that going to be determined? Have everyone flash their junk upon entry?
Is it me - I could be wrong but bathrooms in Europe are open to both sexes. Much to do about nothing
Have you ever actually been to Europe? This is totally untrue in the vast majority of it.
Have visited over 20 countries my fried - or not friend How about you???
It's around the same number. I was in Paris for 3 weeks a few months ago. All the public toilets I saw were segregated by sex.
I suspect it will make the men uncomfortable and this whole issue will die down.
It will
Well the solution is to just not go to the bathroom at all. Let’s see the Congresscritters pass that rule.
Well done Chris. An excellent dissection of Mace.
Thank you, Chris, for this thoughtful post. I am an 80 year old transgender woman who knew she was different by age 6 and also knew she had to hide her knowledge and beliefs even from herself. I forced myself to live as though I were a cisgender guy for over 50 years, suffering with depression that was only lifted when I finally came out to myself in 2005, and publicly in 2008. I had to pay for my own gender confirming surgery in 2013 because the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services prohibited such payment, but went on to play a small role in convincing CMS to lift the prohibition in 2014.
Transgender people face a challenging situation in a world where even our basic existence is denied, even as many thousands like me have lives that are in effect facts on the ground demonstrating that we are real. Science does not know exactly how gender identity comes about, though it seems clear there is a close connection to our biology. But like intersex people whose bodies defy easy classification as male or female, and gay and lesbian people whose sexual attractions defy easy conclusions about DNA and sexual orientation, transgender people are likewise a real variation on what it means to be human. We deserve the same respect and human rights as everyone else.
In the future we as a society will need to figure out more nuanced questions like how to deal with the sports issue, but bathrooms hysteria is wrong and harmful to everyone. Transgender women have been using women's bathrooms in states like Oregon where it has been legal for years without a rash of sexual assaults against cisgender women. And how will authorities know if someone is transgender if they are not out publicly? Will the capitol police be allowed to do an invasive visual exploration of an individual's body if someone like Mace makes a complaint?
I have volunteered as a patient helping medical staff improve health care for everyone, and as an employee onboarding, training and mentoring other such volunteers. I will continue as an independent writer seeking a better world where common sense science helps us figure out how to do that, and how to help our country be better at living up to its lofty values. I went on the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom in 1963 for that reason, and I will never stop doing so.
Until I read “Inverse Cowgirl” my knowledge of intersex was, other than mythology, limited. After hearing the author on a podcast, I wanted to understand what life was like when one is assigned a gender by someone at the birth of another and the impact on so many lives.
DNA is so complex. More is learned as different tools are created and minds like daVinci’s [watching “Leonardo”, the new Ken Burns film on PBS reawakened my marvel at his great capacity of curiosity to seek more knowledge and how he did it] rise to meet the times. Where is that curiosity now?
Other than Rep-elect McBride, who does Mace or the others know to listen to their experience? Or anyone who believes they just aren’t like “what we are programmed to be” based assigned gender? Girls good at sports or those who liked tree climbing were called “tomboys” to differ them from the expected behaviors.
A friend’s not-intersex-grandchild was assigned a gender at birth and from all I know, never ever believed they [it’s easy once you get an old English teacher or editor out of your head] were the assigned gender. The rejection of clothes put on them when they could discern and express a difference & preference was strong. Now, still early school grades, they dress as they want to be known. Later - much later - different therapy and eventually, surgery.
There’s lots I don’t understand - still to this day as a person born in the late ‘40s - how televisions can get an image on screen!
If the US House tolerated Matt Gaetz’s showing to colleagues while huddled in a corner of the House, images of his sexual conquests and didn’t move away or report it, Rep McBride, if she’d not run as a publicly transgender person, could just have freshened her make up where she’d chose.
Thank you, Joan. for your thoughtful approach to your friend’s child. I also knew nothing about the experience of being born intersex, although a couple of people at my local Unitarian church told me they were after I came out as transgender and became known for telling my own story as a transgender woman.
I think kindness and curiosity as you showed are important in these situations.
I thank you for sharing your much needed perspective on this issue.
This took courage.
I 100% agree with your preamble. I may be slightly more progressive on the issues of sports/bathrooms, but it is still not clear to me. And, I 100% appreciate you being transparent about you not being on the leading edge of the lived experiences (as I have also not been). I'm seeking to be open to understanding, and supportive of everyone. As you seem to be...still sorting out what that means.
One thing that has occurred to me throughout this period of societal debate, and highlighted for me reading your post: I never hear anyone express fear of persons born female entering a male bathroom. There is an inherent presumption of male dominance in the dialog, and that we must protect females. And, what, other than custom and common sense, is keeping nefarious males out of female bathrooms to date? Nothing.
What I wish we had as a norm was nothing but universal bathrooms, whether that be 2 or 3 (or more) separate bathrooms that anyone can use, or a common area for sinks with separate toilet rooms off that common area (I've experienced in other countries, and no one seemed to be concerned about the presence of either/any gender in the common area).
I don't know what to do about sports. That's a legitimate quandry to me.
And, I have no use for Nancy Mace.
She is a horrible, horrible woman. And now she's upset that people are being mean to her because she's suffering some sort of PTSD. It's too much. Beyond McBride, though, this new policy puts every other transgender Congressional aide, staff member and even visitor into a quandary. Which bathroom do they use?
What a complete waste of her constituents’ time. Let’s hope she is voted out soon. Meanwhile, it makes sense to me that going forward all public bathrooms should be unisex. I’m sure they can be designed appropriately to accommodate us all.
Been like that in Japan for at least a few decades.
Yes, Dawn. I think I remember some in England too when I last visited. It really does simplify life.
Chris, I am your senior by a bit but work with a lot of 20 -something engineers. I have gotten around messing up on they/them by using someone’s name but this next generation is awesome and just uses whatever pronouns needed without a thought or a complaint. To them it just is how you do it, not some burden. I a hopeful for our future.
Thanks for the part on Trans rights. I would guess that most Americans are in the same boat. Personally I don't want people to be hurt (violence against trans is really bad) and to be discriminated against. That said the discussion is not pure black and white. Can we have a nuanced and science based discussion or do we just yell at each other? (guess what both sides are as crazy on the black and white aspects of this issue)... I bet we just yell. 😭
I'm curious as to what you mean by a science-based discussion.
I was wondering the same thing. While there is definitely some science that is applicable this is SO much more than about the science.
I think science is very much involved
The idea that someone can simply change their sex by willing it is certainly not based in evidentiary science. I, for one, do not think that transwomen are women.
I think you're misunderstanding or misapplying the role of science in this discussion. For example, there is an entire field of medicine devoted to intersex, and it is not a psychological subspecialty (although, obviously, that's part of it); it's biological and surgical medicine. As a retired physician, I remember having to learn about the incredible nuance involved in sexual and gender development--biological, hormonal, anatomical--and the one thing that the science has taught me is that it is a deeply complex process, and there is a lot more to it than we understand even today. In other words, anyone who tells you there are only two genders has no idea what they're talking about, scientifically speaking.
For those that are interested, I highly recommend this post by Dr. Steven Novella, a Yale neurologist: https://theness.com/neurologicablog/a-discussion-about-biological-sex/
WElL PUT
Like Chris, I'm trying to work my way through this issue in an inclusive way. Trans people have been with us throughout human history. I don't think they are trying to "change their sex by willing it." They are people who deeply identify with one gender but find themselves in the body of the other (I'm being binary for simplicity). These folks didn't choose their internal or external states.
Your first mistakes are using words like "simply" and "willing it".
Wholly inaccurate.
It's based on genes 🧬 which is science. A lot more science than discussing here
I'd like to see an approach to sports much like the Olympics uses to determine who can compete as a woman. That seems science based.
Listen to the podcast, Tested, to learn how this is more complex than you think. Sports authorities definitely do not have it figured out. Far from it.
Yes they do, a trans individual has already won a gold medal in women’s soccer and nobody even cares because the IOC just used common sense to determine eligibility for the women’s division—they looked at Quinn’s birth certificate.
I don't watch soccer, so I don't know the answer to the question I'm about to ask: Do they give out Olympic medals to only one person on a soccer team or does the entire team get the medal/medals?
The entire Canadian women’s team got gold medals including Quinn who is not a woman.
I appreciate your thoughts, and agree that Mace is just a dumpster fire of a human being. That said, I would say that, for me, allowing trans people to use the bathrooms of that match their identity is not a complex issue. Not that it should even be necessary, but plenty of studies exist to show that trans people do not pose a threat to cisgender people in bathrooms. On the other hand -- and this shouldn't be shocking -- trans people FACE violence with terrifying regularity. To suggest this is to protect women is offensive -- the only women who would likely face violence would be trans women. Which undoubtedly is something that a disgusting transphobe would like Mace quite a bit.
As a former resident of her district I want to say AMEN!!!
She has shown over and over again that she is willing to sell her soul to the highest (or lowest) bidder! In that she is following n the path of SC senior senator. Integrity is not their hallmark!
If I want to get really in the gutter with Nancy, I just want to ask, "Who is going to be stationed at the door to check?"
One other thing, here. Just how many folks are we really talking about here? I would posit that the number of people sitting around their kitchen tables trying to make ends meet far outweighs the number of trans people. Seems to me like McBride's focus is far better than Mace's.
" Save Women's Sports, an organization advocating for banning transgender athletes from competing in girls' sports, identified only five transgender athletes competing on girls' teams in school sports for grades K through 12."
"Politico reported that four transgender athletes out of 85,000 athletes competed in sports at state high schools. Only one of the athletes was competing in girls' sports."
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-transgender-athletes-play-womens-sports-1796006
"estimates fewer than 40 of the NCAA's more than 500,000 athletes are known to be transgender."
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/12/sport/naia-ncaa-transgender-ban-sports/index.html
Precisely my point, thanks for the references. There were laws voted on in Utah - targeting 4 athletes, I think. and yet, this seems to be the issue most worthy of the focus of their attention. They are targeting kids who have already had a rough row to hoe. Just so sad.
The one thing I would really like explained about this Trans Panic is the motivation for a male becoming a female over the grand prize of women's sports. Because it's kinda ironic that top star female athletes are paid peanuts, have to have second jobs and are disrespected regularly in comparison to men's in sports but in America we all think there are actual men who want to change their gender to gain an advantage for what? So they can then become the most murdered and attacked minority group and win a local girls track meet? It's so strange to me we always have opinions but no logic about what we are debating.
https://www.shewon.org
Wow disc golf and darts my god the horror. The vast majority of these examples are not even sports man they are games in other countries and this proves my point you don't need to pass laws and discriminate against the 1% transgender population in America to save international disc golf. Thanks but no thanks. How about all of you who care so very deeply about saving girls sports start paying them fairly
https://www.hecheated.org/totals_results_2020s
What hole the pee comes out of.
That's it. That's the issue here. Great job Nancy.
Let's call it what it is.
I don't use the ladies room unless its an emergency. But one thing I can tell you for certain is that gals don't pee in public. (I know, another Rocket Man revelation)
So whether she likes it or not, this is about what thing they are using to pee. Unlike the guys, where we stand next to each other like cattle, the ladies have way more privacy.
I share the same feelings as most of us. Biological men should NOT be competing against women in any sports competition.
But going to the bathroom? C'mon Ms. Mace, you can't be that much of a prude. Actually you have gone on record multiple times bragging about all kinds of sex stuff that probably should be private. We get it, you have an active sex life.
So why on God's green earth are you crazy upset that you are going be in the stall next to someone who is using a different part to pee? Does this affect your life so much? We know you've seen plenty of men, it's not like you don't know what they look like.
We need more privacy in locker rooms…but gay men won’t like that! 😝
How about the locker room for the House gym?
OMG, there's a penis in here. C'mon girls, let's go!
I got a serious question. Hear me out.
You really think the Trans congressperson is gonna walk into the ladies locker room in the Congressional gym with her unit hanging out? You don't think we have publicly humiliated them enough?
I just don't get it. They say they are the party of family values.
She/He/They is someones kid. You know, part of a family.
If She/He/Them was YOUR kid, would you treat them this way?
I know, I know, YOUR kid would never even THINK of being trans. OK, got it.
But they are someones kid. And that scares the crap out of me that so many folks would treat someones kid so badly.
The fact that your opening sentence mocks women's genuine discomfort invalidates everything you say afterwards.
Here's the problem Dark, and if the last election didn't teach us, nothing will, a whole bunch of folks are tired of being offended about everything. Since I wasn't seeking your validation, I'm fine with you being unvalidated about me. The entire American hang-up with nudity and sex is going to be the end of us. The trans issue is so small and minor, we can learn to deal with it or let it tear us apart. As the congressperson from DE stated, she didn't come to congress to talk about her sexuality, she came to solve peoples problems. I believe her.
There's a reason the Trans ad was the one the Trump campaign ran the most. It resonated with the voters. Ignore them at your peril.
I'm not ignoring them. It was all I heard about for weeks. That and undocumented criminals. I did the research. About 21,000 murders in the USA annually. About 70 done by undocumented immigrants. That's less than 1%. Yet they scared folks. Nancy is scaring women that they're gonna see a penis. We got to stop this crap. Thank you!
Agreed 💯, Rocket!
57 year old white male here. Like Chris, I too struggle with the same questions he has regarding trans issues. One thing I do not struggle with is that everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. Also, mind your own damn business in the bathroom, locker room, etc.
70 year old male here and I agree with both you and Chris 💯%.