I agree. Americans don't really care about Democracy because they have never lived In a nation without it. Guess what? I have (Nigeria, Libya and Kenya) and a nation without Democracy is not a place most Americans would enjoy living in.... Most Americans are spoiled brats... When it comes to Democracy.
As an American, I think that most of us "care" about Democracy. The problem for the Dems is that about half of the voters don't see Trump as an existential threat to that political institution. But to the extent that there are undecided voters, I think most of those can be found among conservative women. Harris' attempt to show Trump as a real threat to Democracy may resonate with some of them. The abortion issue helps as well but that's already baked into the cake.
Yes, I've helped raise a lot of funds and grant money for disadvantaged students to study and/or volunteer abroad. It's a great opportunity for perspective.
I think you misconstrued my comment. Shaun is suggesting America's apathy about democracy reflects the fact that most have never had to live without it. I get that, but it's a real stretch to ask Americans to have that kind of perspective. Half of them have never even visited another country, much less lived in a country without a democracy.
And not for nothing, I find it a little rich that you're calling out my alleged condescension towards Americans when you regularly refer to a large swath of the American public as MAGAts.
I think the point is that we have a large country, unlike, say, most of Europe. Many people here grow up, live, and die within 50 miles of where they were born. Their experience of any diversity is extremely limited. Whereas, in Europe, traveling to neighboring countries, with other cultures and languages, is a quick train ride away. Experiencing other people and other ways of doing things broadens your perspective and tolerance, but also makes you appreciate what is truly great about where you are from. Many of these people screaming about “American Exceptionalism” have never been anywhere else to make a valid comparison. Canada and Mexico aren’t that far away. Visiting is doable. Many Americans just don’t consider it a priority, and greatly dislike things that are unfamiliar. It is one of the reasons I think a mandatory 2-year period of service would be great. Let them choose, but the Peace Corps, environmental work, the military, working on a reservation, etc. would get people away from comfort zones and let them see more of what is out there, and then let them choose what they want to do after in terms of going home or trying something somewhere else. I think we’d be a lot kinder of a country.
I struggle so much with this election because it keeps being portrayed as a battle of 2 equal opponents. Good people on both sides! Meanwhile the right is saying some truly terrifying things. Yet the media just keeps on as if they’re not. It feels like being gaslit. I for one am relieved to hear someone - anyone! - say what I’m seeing out loud. This shouldn’t be about making calculated political moves. This should be about protecting the weak among us from what’s coming if Trump wins.
Look, I honestly think that large numbers of children will be permanently harmed by the TransGender industry if Harris is elected. As a gay man, I have been absolutely horrified by what has gone on and - since Nazi comparisons are in vogue - I consider some (not all!) of the doctors doing this are the equivalent of Joseph Mengele. I'm sure you don't feel the same way and that's fine, but my urge to see the most vulnerable protected is just as strong as yours is. I think people are going to look back on this in history with complete shock and disgust at what is being done to children.
Sorry, @dutchmaga, but your selective memory doesn’t cut it here, with a community of people that actually pay attention to what’s going on in the world.
Low gas prices. Sure, it’s amazing what a pandemic and lack of gas sales will do to the market (and the failure of leadership in 2019 and 2020 that made it FAR worse than it had to be)! And, having quite a number of Texan friends in the petroleum industry, I can definitively say that gas pricing is a global concern, influenced by a *huge* number of factors, the President of the USA being one of the least significant.
Inflation. Again, a global phenomenon due to the pandemic and the supply chain issues it generated. The US, given Biden’s leadership and policies, gave us the best recovery in the developed world from Trump’s mishandling and we are *still* the best economy in the developed world. Oh, and inflation is currently 2.4%, so what were you saying again about “low inflation”?
Secure border. The border was statistically *more* secure under Obama than it was under Trump. Fact. Go look up the data. And what about Sen. James Lankford (R-OK) and his best-of-a-generation border legislation? Yeah, we know what happened to that.
Peace at home and abroad. As long as you forget that he sold out our Kurdish partners to his buddy Putin.
Honestly, you’re not fooling any of us here with your vastly incorrect characterization of Trump’s first term. That you can fool yourself into voting for this person that has zero character or moral values says all we need to know about *you* and your moral hollowness.
When, exactly, was the border secure under Trump? And if he actually cared about the border problem being solved, why didn't he support the bi-partisan bill the Lankford was able to - against all odds! - negotiate?
A straight white male who conforms to the right's ideas of masculinity and conservatism you mean. There are plenty of white males Trump and MAGA don't like - not many people are safe in Trump's eyes.
A few points. 1) For all the understandable handwringing, if the polls are exactly right, Kamala would win in an exceedingly close election. Of course, the polls won't be exactly right, but it's unclear in which direction they will err. 2) No message was going to work for Biden. The problem was the messenger.3) We live in an ill-informed Country that largely is ignorant of (a) Trump's having inherited a healthy economy rather than having created one;(b)his bungling of Covid, tax cuts, &tariffs set the stage for inflation; & (c )during the last 4 years, inflation was a worldwide problem that we've now tamed in the USA while maintaining constant GDP growth, low unemployment&huge stock market gains. With so many ill-informed people, it's tough to find a message that breaks through. But given that Kelly has finally added his voice to the score of other warnings from former Trump appointees&Trump's continued anti-democratic pronouncements, Kamala's bet on the "democracy message" is reasonable.
I would have Obama open for Harris that day. His stump speech is very powerful on your point that the “Trump” economy was actually his economy, as well as the importance of character. I doubt many people in MAGA world heard it, or care, but there are likely enough Trump voters who are not full on MAGA will get it. I hope so anyways….. just a few converts can make a difference.
Never will happen When has any of those existed on the planet for anyone for even more than 30 minutes? You know the history, you are worldly. You should just be authentic to tell us all that you want an all powerful president, with no checks and balances. Basically a reinvented USA since this one isn't to your liking. Too many people who have opinions and want a good life.You see all as criminals or potential criminals. Honestly don't you just want many more people in prisons for small misdemeanors to political statements? Toss in those journalists too. That would be your dream outcome and what Trump is promising to deliver for you.
It’s hard to know if that argument would have worked if Biden had been 10 years younger. But I do think there should be a way to do both arguments in one breath.
1) Harris has actual plans to lower the cost of living; housing, medical and everyday goods.
2) no matter how good you felt the economy was under Trump, two things are true: when it really counted (covid-19) he failed as a leader and he is more unhinged / less tethered in reality than he ever was when he started his first term 8 years ago.
Indeed, nothing Biden did or could do would have mattered due to the extra age ( the 10 years) . I have hope that homework has been done by her staff and it would work on the sliver of undecided voters (undecided whether to vote or undecided as to whom to give it to).
"Democracy" might be the winning message among the sliver of the narrow sliver of voters who remain undecided. But Chris, I think it's a bit insulting to think that voters won't understand that "democracy" includes the freedom for women to choose what happens to their own bodies, or the freedom to vote, or freedom of speech, or having your government work for you rather than oligarchs and countless others who can buy their way to power (like Elon Musk and his Silicon Valley cronies).
Another reason she should have fired Biden's campaign team when she took over. It's a losing argument. Preaching to the choir is not a winning argument as she needs to get beyond 47%/48%..
You just had powerful new info from John Kelly detailing Trump's anti-democratic tendencies, abject ignorance, and distain for the military. It makes perfect sense to try to leverage that info. If Americans don't care about character and democracy, we deserve another 4 years of Trump's insane chaos.
..."an academic pie-in-the-sky argument about Democracy." C'mon man. It's a fundamental down-to-earth discussion about who we are as Americans.
Another take on why that message didn't have legs six months ago is because it didn't matter six months ago. It does now, and Harris and the Dems warning the electorate of the dangers of Trump and the Rs to our Democracy seems like a good closing argument.
An interesting analogy (assuming we feel that the Republicans "lost" the 2022 midterms, in comparison to the expected red wave -- obviously they did win the House, though) might be when President Biden gave a speech about threats to democracy as his last major speech before the midterms. John Harwood, who was being let go or having his CNN contract not renewed that same day, praised Biden's speech in his last appearance (he kept the clip pinned to his Twitter/X account for a long time). Observers from many news organizations, not just CNN, disagreed with Harwood and felt like Biden's speech was a blunder. But it seems to have worked out for Biden and the Dems, with many election deniers losing and a red ripple instead of a red wave, partly due to the Dobbs decision and partly due to the democracy theme Biden highlighted.
I think it IS a gamble, but also the morally righteous thing to do. And yet—will it reach the hearts of that 1% MAGA cult voters who might actually be shamed or enlightened to change their vote? I doubt it. However, I think a song might help. Sung by Bruce Springsteen and gone viral. Sometimes a song with a powerful message can reach the heart when a speech cannot. Perhaps this is the final argument that works:
The Election Song
Do you believe in miracles?
The 2% Miracle: Pull 1% of Trump votes over the next two weeks and give them to Harris. Here’s how:
My point is, that for every in depth response w regards to Kamala, similar depth can and should be given to Trump's shortcomings.
For example:
Word salads. Interesting. Kamala is the serial salad maker but Trump? He's articulated views that you comprehend and support? No notice of word salads from Trump?
This is but one of many I could offer up, but I think you get understand what I am getting at.
I appreciate the details. I really do, but never got a real straight answer on whether or not you have similar feelings of disappointment w Trump. Bc, as stated above, for every shortcoming you believe Harris represents, Trump is every bit of that and more. But in your response you don't give much air, to what many believe, are Trump's various shortcomings. If the details matter in an open dialogue on political discourse, which I believe we both agree is necessary, your above responses lack detail as to why Trump in some ways is a worse candidate.
Also, interesting point on if Kamala loses it allows for a new gen of leaders to ready themselves. I'll remind you, that the same can be said of a Trump loss. A Trump loss could be good for Republicans bc they could turn the page on Trumpism and allow for new leadership/ideas. Might even be able to put forth a candidate that can win a majority of popular vote and 270 in EC.
Hey Chris ( and others) , check out Blueprint's latest polling and the Bulwark Youtube post about it from last night. Blueprint found that the most effective message for Harris is the fact that so many of his appointees and cabinet members don't support him and the reasons they state. This seems to track with the democracy argument. The second most powerful argument in the polling was Trump's role in overturning Roe.
I believe Harris' strategy is not intended to gather last-minute votes but to remind us if Trump does win the election, that the American people shall have made their choice with full knowledge and warning of such a choice. We, the losers, will be obliged to accept Trump's victory, unless it is clearly a result of violent/illegal action that gives him the Presidency. The Democratic loss will not be because Harris ran a poor or ineffective campaign. She has been magnificent given the circumstances of this race. By all that is reasonable and smart, the Harris/Walz ticket should be victorious.
If hearts and minds are not winnable in this election with her practical problem-solving solutions and clarion call to reason, compassion, and the love of our freedoms and our sacred commitment to American "liberty and justice for all," there are more glaring problems beyond Trump the candidate. Clear-eyed acceptance of the challenges that must be taken up by new American generations is crucial, despite who wins this election. The other side is arguing bread and butter issues and evil of the other, while Harris and team are screaming that freedom and human choice will secure our daily needs for sustenance, but our character must do the heavy lifting. The Christian Nationalist hordes who favor Trump should consider the language of "The Lords Prayer" for guidance before voting.
That's the correct closing argument becuase it's not just "democracy," it's chaos and lawlessness. Harris should be blasting clips of Jan 6 everywhere.
This is a interesting conversation. I wonder if this is a good gamble at this point. I feel she has locked down the abortion vote at this point. She probably has as much of the economic vote as she will get at this point. Immigration she might could sway some undecideds but the democracy argument could be a sleeper issue to a lot more undecideds than we realize. I think she might be smart to put this out as a major talking point here at the end while still talking abortion and economy.
I agree. Americans don't really care about Democracy because they have never lived In a nation without it. Guess what? I have (Nigeria, Libya and Kenya) and a nation without Democracy is not a place most Americans would enjoy living in.... Most Americans are spoiled brats... When it comes to Democracy.
As an American, I think that most of us "care" about Democracy. The problem for the Dems is that about half of the voters don't see Trump as an existential threat to that political institution. But to the extent that there are undecided voters, I think most of those can be found among conservative women. Harris' attempt to show Trump as a real threat to Democracy may resonate with some of them. The abortion issue helps as well but that's already baked into the cake.
Half of Americans don’t even have a passport and have thus never even visited another country.
And are you volunteering to subsidize their travels? If not, what's your point?
Yes, I've helped raise a lot of funds and grant money for disadvantaged students to study and/or volunteer abroad. It's a great opportunity for perspective.
Good for you. Sincerely. But travel abroad isn't an option for many people, and it shouldn't be treated as if they have somehow failed.
I think you misconstrued my comment. Shaun is suggesting America's apathy about democracy reflects the fact that most have never had to live without it. I get that, but it's a real stretch to ask Americans to have that kind of perspective. Half of them have never even visited another country, much less lived in a country without a democracy.
And not for nothing, I find it a little rich that you're calling out my alleged condescension towards Americans when you regularly refer to a large swath of the American public as MAGAts.
Just like Nixon's Committee to Re-Elect the President was referred to as CREEP.
I think the point is that we have a large country, unlike, say, most of Europe. Many people here grow up, live, and die within 50 miles of where they were born. Their experience of any diversity is extremely limited. Whereas, in Europe, traveling to neighboring countries, with other cultures and languages, is a quick train ride away. Experiencing other people and other ways of doing things broadens your perspective and tolerance, but also makes you appreciate what is truly great about where you are from. Many of these people screaming about “American Exceptionalism” have never been anywhere else to make a valid comparison. Canada and Mexico aren’t that far away. Visiting is doable. Many Americans just don’t consider it a priority, and greatly dislike things that are unfamiliar. It is one of the reasons I think a mandatory 2-year period of service would be great. Let them choose, but the Peace Corps, environmental work, the military, working on a reservation, etc. would get people away from comfort zones and let them see more of what is out there, and then let them choose what they want to do after in terms of going home or trying something somewhere else. I think we’d be a lot kinder of a country.
I've actually witnessed a dramatic increase in voluntary service among college students in the last decade. There's hope for the future.
I struggle so much with this election because it keeps being portrayed as a battle of 2 equal opponents. Good people on both sides! Meanwhile the right is saying some truly terrifying things. Yet the media just keeps on as if they’re not. It feels like being gaslit. I for one am relieved to hear someone - anyone! - say what I’m seeing out loud. This shouldn’t be about making calculated political moves. This should be about protecting the weak among us from what’s coming if Trump wins.
Look, I honestly think that large numbers of children will be permanently harmed by the TransGender industry if Harris is elected. As a gay man, I have been absolutely horrified by what has gone on and - since Nazi comparisons are in vogue - I consider some (not all!) of the doctors doing this are the equivalent of Joseph Mengele. I'm sure you don't feel the same way and that's fine, but my urge to see the most vulnerable protected is just as strong as yours is. I think people are going to look back on this in history with complete shock and disgust at what is being done to children.
Low gas prices, low inflation, secure border, peace at home and abroad. How are we ever gonna deal with all that?!?
Sorry, @dutchmaga, but your selective memory doesn’t cut it here, with a community of people that actually pay attention to what’s going on in the world.
Low gas prices. Sure, it’s amazing what a pandemic and lack of gas sales will do to the market (and the failure of leadership in 2019 and 2020 that made it FAR worse than it had to be)! And, having quite a number of Texan friends in the petroleum industry, I can definitively say that gas pricing is a global concern, influenced by a *huge* number of factors, the President of the USA being one of the least significant.
Inflation. Again, a global phenomenon due to the pandemic and the supply chain issues it generated. The US, given Biden’s leadership and policies, gave us the best recovery in the developed world from Trump’s mishandling and we are *still* the best economy in the developed world. Oh, and inflation is currently 2.4%, so what were you saying again about “low inflation”?
Secure border. The border was statistically *more* secure under Obama than it was under Trump. Fact. Go look up the data. And what about Sen. James Lankford (R-OK) and his best-of-a-generation border legislation? Yeah, we know what happened to that.
Peace at home and abroad. As long as you forget that he sold out our Kurdish partners to his buddy Putin.
Honestly, you’re not fooling any of us here with your vastly incorrect characterization of Trump’s first term. That you can fool yourself into voting for this person that has zero character or moral values says all we need to know about *you* and your moral hollowness.
When, exactly, was the border secure under Trump? And if he actually cared about the border problem being solved, why didn't he support the bi-partisan bill the Lankford was able to - against all odds! - negotiate?
All good if you’re a white male.
A straight white male who conforms to the right's ideas of masculinity and conservatism you mean. There are plenty of white males Trump and MAGA don't like - not many people are safe in Trump's eyes.
A few points. 1) For all the understandable handwringing, if the polls are exactly right, Kamala would win in an exceedingly close election. Of course, the polls won't be exactly right, but it's unclear in which direction they will err. 2) No message was going to work for Biden. The problem was the messenger.3) We live in an ill-informed Country that largely is ignorant of (a) Trump's having inherited a healthy economy rather than having created one;(b)his bungling of Covid, tax cuts, &tariffs set the stage for inflation; & (c )during the last 4 years, inflation was a worldwide problem that we've now tamed in the USA while maintaining constant GDP growth, low unemployment&huge stock market gains. With so many ill-informed people, it's tough to find a message that breaks through. But given that Kelly has finally added his voice to the score of other warnings from former Trump appointees&Trump's continued anti-democratic pronouncements, Kamala's bet on the "democracy message" is reasonable.
I would have Obama open for Harris that day. His stump speech is very powerful on your point that the “Trump” economy was actually his economy, as well as the importance of character. I doubt many people in MAGA world heard it, or care, but there are likely enough Trump voters who are not full on MAGA will get it. I hope so anyways….. just a few converts can make a difference.
President Trump’s economy was really Obamas? Bunch of hillbillies can’t understand that! Bunch of rubes…..
That’s a real stretch, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
Never will happen When has any of those existed on the planet for anyone for even more than 30 minutes? You know the history, you are worldly. You should just be authentic to tell us all that you want an all powerful president, with no checks and balances. Basically a reinvented USA since this one isn't to your liking. Too many people who have opinions and want a good life.You see all as criminals or potential criminals. Honestly don't you just want many more people in prisons for small misdemeanors to political statements? Toss in those journalists too. That would be your dream outcome and what Trump is promising to deliver for you.
I hope the strategy works. If we lose our democracy, then none of these other issues are going to matter much.
She is not neglecting the abortion issue. The campaign just released this powerful ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNmmiYjDgQ
It’s hard to know if that argument would have worked if Biden had been 10 years younger. But I do think there should be a way to do both arguments in one breath.
1) Harris has actual plans to lower the cost of living; housing, medical and everyday goods.
2) no matter how good you felt the economy was under Trump, two things are true: when it really counted (covid-19) he failed as a leader and he is more unhinged / less tethered in reality than he ever was when he started his first term 8 years ago.
Indeed, nothing Biden did or could do would have mattered due to the extra age ( the 10 years) . I have hope that homework has been done by her staff and it would work on the sliver of undecided voters (undecided whether to vote or undecided as to whom to give it to).
"Democracy" might be the winning message among the sliver of the narrow sliver of voters who remain undecided. But Chris, I think it's a bit insulting to think that voters won't understand that "democracy" includes the freedom for women to choose what happens to their own bodies, or the freedom to vote, or freedom of speech, or having your government work for you rather than oligarchs and countless others who can buy their way to power (like Elon Musk and his Silicon Valley cronies).
Something can be both insulting and true.
Another reason she should have fired Biden's campaign team when she took over. It's a losing argument. Preaching to the choir is not a winning argument as she needs to get beyond 47%/48%..
You just had powerful new info from John Kelly detailing Trump's anti-democratic tendencies, abject ignorance, and distain for the military. It makes perfect sense to try to leverage that info. If Americans don't care about character and democracy, we deserve another 4 years of Trump's insane chaos.
..."an academic pie-in-the-sky argument about Democracy." C'mon man. It's a fundamental down-to-earth discussion about who we are as Americans.
Another take on why that message didn't have legs six months ago is because it didn't matter six months ago. It does now, and Harris and the Dems warning the electorate of the dangers of Trump and the Rs to our Democracy seems like a good closing argument.
An interesting analogy (assuming we feel that the Republicans "lost" the 2022 midterms, in comparison to the expected red wave -- obviously they did win the House, though) might be when President Biden gave a speech about threats to democracy as his last major speech before the midterms. John Harwood, who was being let go or having his CNN contract not renewed that same day, praised Biden's speech in his last appearance (he kept the clip pinned to his Twitter/X account for a long time). Observers from many news organizations, not just CNN, disagreed with Harwood and felt like Biden's speech was a blunder. But it seems to have worked out for Biden and the Dems, with many election deniers losing and a red ripple instead of a red wave, partly due to the Dobbs decision and partly due to the democracy theme Biden highlighted.
I think it IS a gamble, but also the morally righteous thing to do. And yet—will it reach the hearts of that 1% MAGA cult voters who might actually be shamed or enlightened to change their vote? I doubt it. However, I think a song might help. Sung by Bruce Springsteen and gone viral. Sometimes a song with a powerful message can reach the heart when a speech cannot. Perhaps this is the final argument that works:
The Election Song
Do you believe in miracles?
The 2% Miracle: Pull 1% of Trump votes over the next two weeks and give them to Harris. Here’s how:
https://youtu.be/HP8Gj1rdvHE?si=HH07bl43HcPZk4It
With admiration for the good work you do and the excellence of your commentary, James
100% agree that details matter.
My point is, that for every in depth response w regards to Kamala, similar depth can and should be given to Trump's shortcomings.
For example:
Word salads. Interesting. Kamala is the serial salad maker but Trump? He's articulated views that you comprehend and support? No notice of word salads from Trump?
This is but one of many I could offer up, but I think you get understand what I am getting at.
I appreciate the details. I really do, but never got a real straight answer on whether or not you have similar feelings of disappointment w Trump. Bc, as stated above, for every shortcoming you believe Harris represents, Trump is every bit of that and more. But in your response you don't give much air, to what many believe, are Trump's various shortcomings. If the details matter in an open dialogue on political discourse, which I believe we both agree is necessary, your above responses lack detail as to why Trump in some ways is a worse candidate.
Also, interesting point on if Kamala loses it allows for a new gen of leaders to ready themselves. I'll remind you, that the same can be said of a Trump loss. A Trump loss could be good for Republicans bc they could turn the page on Trumpism and allow for new leadership/ideas. Might even be able to put forth a candidate that can win a majority of popular vote and 270 in EC.
Hey Chris ( and others) , check out Blueprint's latest polling and the Bulwark Youtube post about it from last night. Blueprint found that the most effective message for Harris is the fact that so many of his appointees and cabinet members don't support him and the reasons they state. This seems to track with the democracy argument. The second most powerful argument in the polling was Trump's role in overturning Roe.
I believe Harris' strategy is not intended to gather last-minute votes but to remind us if Trump does win the election, that the American people shall have made their choice with full knowledge and warning of such a choice. We, the losers, will be obliged to accept Trump's victory, unless it is clearly a result of violent/illegal action that gives him the Presidency. The Democratic loss will not be because Harris ran a poor or ineffective campaign. She has been magnificent given the circumstances of this race. By all that is reasonable and smart, the Harris/Walz ticket should be victorious.
If hearts and minds are not winnable in this election with her practical problem-solving solutions and clarion call to reason, compassion, and the love of our freedoms and our sacred commitment to American "liberty and justice for all," there are more glaring problems beyond Trump the candidate. Clear-eyed acceptance of the challenges that must be taken up by new American generations is crucial, despite who wins this election. The other side is arguing bread and butter issues and evil of the other, while Harris and team are screaming that freedom and human choice will secure our daily needs for sustenance, but our character must do the heavy lifting. The Christian Nationalist hordes who favor Trump should consider the language of "The Lords Prayer" for guidance before voting.
That's the correct closing argument becuase it's not just "democracy," it's chaos and lawlessness. Harris should be blasting clips of Jan 6 everywhere.
This is a interesting conversation. I wonder if this is a good gamble at this point. I feel she has locked down the abortion vote at this point. She probably has as much of the economic vote as she will get at this point. Immigration she might could sway some undecideds but the democracy argument could be a sleeper issue to a lot more undecideds than we realize. I think she might be smart to put this out as a major talking point here at the end while still talking abortion and economy.