Yesterday, on the third anniversary of our botched withdrawal from Afghanistan, the Taliban had a parade with billions of dollars of captured US Equipment. What legacy?
Do you mean the withdrawal that Trump’s team negotiated and set the timeline? That withdrawal? I think if it tanks anyone’s legacy, you might want to look to the right.
I think you are referring to the Doha Peace Agreement by Trump which set mutual conditions for a withdrawal by May 2021. Despite the fact that the Taliban did not meeting the terms, Biden accelerated the withdrawal in April 2021 which led to a collapse by August. Russia (re-attacked) Ukraine in February 2022.
And stop with the lie that there were “billions of dollars” of US gear left in Afghanistan! Trump has said it repeatedly, never acknowledging *his* participation in the withdrawal, and he’s been fact-checked and debunked repeatedly as well.
Do your own searching, but while we spent “billions” on the efforts in Afghanistan & Pakistan (all part of the same campaign), that was on a *lot* that was simply NOT military equipment: State Department operations, veteran’s benefits, national military police and training, etc. And it’s widely documented that what military equipment *was* left (73 aircraft, nearly 100 vehicles, MD-530 helicopters, etc.), were all rendered impossible to use.
Wrong. The dollar amount left behind is $8B. This is indisputable. Tongue in cheek, if “impossible” to use why are they being used in a 3 year victory parade?
By left behind we mean we provided it to the Afghan government and military. Should we have left them completely unarmed? More relevantly, how much money would we have spent in the years since the withdrawal had we not withdrawn?
As compared to Trump’s Legacy of trying to overthrow a free and fair election for President of United States and instead, inciting an invasion of the capital building which led to the deaths of police officers, so he could try to become a dictator.
Yes, I will take Biden‘s legacy any day over the prior office’s occupant.
There was no invasion under Trump and no police officers were killed. On the other hand, Bidenomics worked so well that VP Harris wants price controls. War in Middle East. Russia reattacked Ukraine.
So that’s why 100s of people that did not invade the capitol building are all in jail now. Give me a break. And saying Biden is responsible for the war that started in the Middle East is just pure asinine.
Not a single person is in jai for “invasion.” 243 are in jail for “obstructing an official proceeding” which the Supreme Court ruled as unconstitutional. Why is it asinine to deduce that a president who was removed by his own party due to mental faculties may have led to Hamas attacking Israel and Russia re-attacking Ukraine?
You can’t force freedom down someone’s throat. We wanted democracy and freedom for the Afghans more than they did. They made their beds, let them sleep in it. Who cares what the Taliban says or does???
We weren't in Afghanistan for democracy and nation building. We were there to get bin Laden and eliminate the terrorist threat. The moment we eliminated Osama was the moment we should have started the withdrawal.
Absolutely. But remember Colin Powell’s remark: you break it, you bought it. We f*cked that country up royally and there was an obligation to fix the damage. Unfortunately the Afghans just wanted us the hell out at all costs, good intentions or not. It’s a damn shame but way back in the rear view mirror at this point.
The nickname of Afghanistan is "the graveyard of empires" (Great Britain, USSR, and others. They've tired of being run over and being told what to do, how to behave, what and how to believe, etc. As Waltz says, let's mind our own damn business and let them live as they want. Eventually the population will take care of the problem at the top of their society. As will we!
and remember, Biden only implemented Trump's withdrawal timeline. Whether it was too early, on time, or too late, the calendar was chosen by the Trump team.
This is patently false because the May 2021 timeline was contingent on the Taliban meeting their end. Biden, despite the Taliban not meeting the conditions, accelerated the withdrawal in April 2021 then lied about the ANA's performance.
Can you imagine the pressure that Biden was under? Can you imagine the pressure that Trump is under now--even as the ultimate showman, he feels the pressure and can't make a coherent point;
When you started my first thought of Al Gore! You are exactly right. Al gore during the campaign=wooden. I saw him in person several months after and my first thought was, "Where was this person?"
I think the same thing was true with George Bush the elder. After his loss he was much nicer, funnier, appealable. Where was that person?
I have seen the same thing in pastors at the end of their career when they are no longer terrified of what people might think and are willing to speak the truth they have known for years. My prayer is that I never fall into that trap.
Yes, Chris, agreed. He has been liberated to be himself, and understands fully that his legacy will extend into Harris's upcoming term, after she trounces l'Orange.
There are many examples of this: Hillary was at her best at the end of the 2008 primary. And I believe this was one of Donald Trump's superpowers in 2016: his political career was something of a lark, so he could take chances other candidates never would, as he didn't expect to win and had other jobs to go back to. He's never been able to replicate that since, nor as he learned how to operate as a conventional candidate.
John McCain had the opposite trajectory: he was exciting when he was just a "maverick" and longshot, but the more he became a plausible (and then eventual) nominee, the worse he got.
it would have been hard for any Republican to win following Bush, but I'm talking about the 2000 "Straight Talk Express" days, when the media and many voters fell in love with him. By 2008, all that charisma had magically vanished.
I watched Al Gore's concession speech that you posted here...thank you for the opportunity to remember what dignity and statesmanship looked like, in the wake of losing an election.
And Chris, you are right on target 🎯 in your assessment of Biden's role at this time, and in your quote from a Janis Joplin tune, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." I'm wishing Joe Biden many wonderful remaining years, after a lifetime of service to this country.
All is true what you say Chris unfortunately JB will be remembered as the guy whose party kicked him to the curb and for his awful debate performance. Years from now people will say, after a particularly bad debate, at least it wasn’t as bad as “a Biden”
Seems to me, more like he will be seen as what he was:
A bridge President/Presidency, who was only elected bc of the fears of a 2nd Trump administration and the possible unraveling of this democratic experience.
A career statesmen who actually cared about the US. We can debate his policies, whether I/we agree/disagree. But he is a decent human being who wanted what was best for the US. Unlike others.....many others......
Biden is a totally honorable and decent human being. But his legacy would have been that much brighter if he had kept to his promise of being a one-term bridge to the future.
I can agree w/that. Much different being forced out than bowing out gracefully.
But.....so much of me believes that Biden "believed" he....and only he could defeat Trump. It took him far too long to realize that most of his votes were a vote against Trump rather than a vote for him and his policies. I chalk this up to ego.
Well I think that it was more like his party dragged him kicking and screaming - like a denied toddler in a supermarket - to do the right thing for the country and withdraw before he embarrassed himself further.
💯 MaryAnne!!! But deep down I will never forgive Biden for putting us through those 3 weeks of agony after his debate debacle. With the future of our democracy literally riding on this election, country comes before any one man’s ego or ambition.
In retrospect, it's remarkable John Fetterman not only stayed the nominee but has flourished since. I guess because his condition could improve while aging is tough to reverse.
No, Biden was actually giving the hint that he’s going to declare the relaunch of his re-election campaign during his convention speech at Chicago. He will tell everyone he’s back in the race and the delegates will vote between him and Disloyal Kamala Harris to determine who’s the Democratic nominee for president. Yesterday’s speech was like the prologue of that.
Fact Check on Gore. Cilizza gets the reason why Gore conceded wrong. After 36 days, the Supreme Court that a FL statewide was unconstitutional not that it could "stop." How does he get so many simple facts wrong?
I loved reading your article this morning. I missed Joe Biden with Kamala Harris, but I'm so glad that he made a good showing. I think he's a special human being, and I hate how the press has reduced him because of his showing at the debate.
I was only a teenager at the time, but I recall the same thing being said about Ted Kennedy in 1980 after he lost the nomination to President Carter. Kennedy's speech at the Convention was superb, leading plenty to ask, "Where has this guy been?"
A point well taken, Chris.
He can now relax and focus on his priorities the next 6 months and help his legacy continue with a Harris win in November.
Yesterday, on the third anniversary of our botched withdrawal from Afghanistan, the Taliban had a parade with billions of dollars of captured US Equipment. What legacy?
Do you mean the withdrawal that Trump’s team negotiated and set the timeline? That withdrawal? I think if it tanks anyone’s legacy, you might want to look to the right.
I think you are referring to the Doha Peace Agreement by Trump which set mutual conditions for a withdrawal by May 2021. Despite the fact that the Taliban did not meeting the terms, Biden accelerated the withdrawal in April 2021 which led to a collapse by August. Russia (re-attacked) Ukraine in February 2022.
And stop with the lie that there were “billions of dollars” of US gear left in Afghanistan! Trump has said it repeatedly, never acknowledging *his* participation in the withdrawal, and he’s been fact-checked and debunked repeatedly as well.
Do your own searching, but while we spent “billions” on the efforts in Afghanistan & Pakistan (all part of the same campaign), that was on a *lot* that was simply NOT military equipment: State Department operations, veteran’s benefits, national military police and training, etc. And it’s widely documented that what military equipment *was* left (73 aircraft, nearly 100 vehicles, MD-530 helicopters, etc.), were all rendered impossible to use.
Wrong. The dollar amount left behind is $8B. This is indisputable. Tongue in cheek, if “impossible” to use why are they being used in a 3 year victory parade?
By left behind we mean we provided it to the Afghan government and military. Should we have left them completely unarmed? More relevantly, how much money would we have spent in the years since the withdrawal had we not withdrawn?
Well said Christi.
As compared to Trump’s Legacy of trying to overthrow a free and fair election for President of United States and instead, inciting an invasion of the capital building which led to the deaths of police officers, so he could try to become a dictator.
Yes, I will take Biden‘s legacy any day over the prior office’s occupant.
There was no invasion under Trump and no police officers were killed. On the other hand, Bidenomics worked so well that VP Harris wants price controls. War in Middle East. Russia reattacked Ukraine.
So that’s why 100s of people that did not invade the capitol building are all in jail now. Give me a break. And saying Biden is responsible for the war that started in the Middle East is just pure asinine.
Not a single person is in jai for “invasion.” 243 are in jail for “obstructing an official proceeding” which the Supreme Court ruled as unconstitutional. Why is it asinine to deduce that a president who was removed by his own party due to mental faculties may have led to Hamas attacking Israel and Russia re-attacking Ukraine?
They invaded the Capitol Building as you can see in numerous videos. You call it whatever you want.
And yes, it’s totally asinine to attribute the Hamas attack on Israel to Biden. Jeez! I’m done wasting my time “debating” with you. What a waste! 👎🏻
You can’t force freedom down someone’s throat. We wanted democracy and freedom for the Afghans more than they did. They made their beds, let them sleep in it. Who cares what the Taliban says or does???
We weren't in Afghanistan for democracy and nation building. We were there to get bin Laden and eliminate the terrorist threat. The moment we eliminated Osama was the moment we should have started the withdrawal.
Absolutely. But remember Colin Powell’s remark: you break it, you bought it. We f*cked that country up royally and there was an obligation to fix the damage. Unfortunately the Afghans just wanted us the hell out at all costs, good intentions or not. It’s a damn shame but way back in the rear view mirror at this point.
The nickname of Afghanistan is "the graveyard of empires" (Great Britain, USSR, and others. They've tired of being run over and being told what to do, how to behave, what and how to believe, etc. As Waltz says, let's mind our own damn business and let them live as they want. Eventually the population will take care of the problem at the top of their society. As will we!
Taliban having a victory parade with billions of dollars of US Equipment is not a good legacy.
Trump engineered that mess to screw the next administration. Another piece of proof that he knew he lost the election.
There are plenty of other things in Biden’s legacy.
and remember, Biden only implemented Trump's withdrawal timeline. Whether it was too early, on time, or too late, the calendar was chosen by the Trump team.
This is patently false because the May 2021 timeline was contingent on the Taliban meeting their end. Biden, despite the Taliban not meeting the conditions, accelerated the withdrawal in April 2021 then lied about the ANA's performance.
Can you imagine the pressure that Biden was under? Can you imagine the pressure that Trump is under now--even as the ultimate showman, he feels the pressure and can't make a coherent point;
Just a general comment here on the chat:
What used to be one of the more civil dialogues on Substack, and maybe online in general.......has devolved into a maze of trolls. That's too bad.
Totally changes the vibe of this sub
When you started my first thought of Al Gore! You are exactly right. Al gore during the campaign=wooden. I saw him in person several months after and my first thought was, "Where was this person?"
I think the same thing was true with George Bush the elder. After his loss he was much nicer, funnier, appealable. Where was that person?
I have seen the same thing in pastors at the end of their career when they are no longer terrified of what people might think and are willing to speak the truth they have known for years. My prayer is that I never fall into that trap.
A good word for all of us!
Yes, Chris, agreed. He has been liberated to be himself, and understands fully that his legacy will extend into Harris's upcoming term, after she trounces l'Orange.
There are many examples of this: Hillary was at her best at the end of the 2008 primary. And I believe this was one of Donald Trump's superpowers in 2016: his political career was something of a lark, so he could take chances other candidates never would, as he didn't expect to win and had other jobs to go back to. He's never been able to replicate that since, nor as he learned how to operate as a conventional candidate.
John McCain had the opposite trajectory: he was exciting when he was just a "maverick" and longshot, but the more he became a plausible (and then eventual) nominee, the worse he got.
I don’t remember that as clearly with John McCain. I always assumed it was his absurd VP pick that sank him.
it would have been hard for any Republican to win following Bush, but I'm talking about the 2000 "Straight Talk Express" days, when the media and many voters fell in love with him. By 2008, all that charisma had magically vanished.
Got it! Thanks!
I watched Al Gore's concession speech that you posted here...thank you for the opportunity to remember what dignity and statesmanship looked like, in the wake of losing an election.
And Chris, you are right on target 🎯 in your assessment of Biden's role at this time, and in your quote from a Janis Joplin tune, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." I'm wishing Joe Biden many wonderful remaining years, after a lifetime of service to this country.
All is true what you say Chris unfortunately JB will be remembered as the guy whose party kicked him to the curb and for his awful debate performance. Years from now people will say, after a particularly bad debate, at least it wasn’t as bad as “a Biden”
Seems to me, more like he will be seen as what he was:
A bridge President/Presidency, who was only elected bc of the fears of a 2nd Trump administration and the possible unraveling of this democratic experience.
A career statesmen who actually cared about the US. We can debate his policies, whether I/we agree/disagree. But he is a decent human being who wanted what was best for the US. Unlike others.....many others......
Biden is a totally honorable and decent human being. But his legacy would have been that much brighter if he had kept to his promise of being a one-term bridge to the future.
I can agree w/that. Much different being forced out than bowing out gracefully.
But.....so much of me believes that Biden "believed" he....and only he could defeat Trump. It took him far too long to realize that most of his votes were a vote against Trump rather than a vote for him and his policies. I chalk this up to ego.
Possibly for the short term. Historians, however, will take a broader view, one that recognizes the actual accomplishments of his administration.
Well I think that it was more like his party dragged him kicking and screaming - like a denied toddler in a supermarket - to do the right thing for the country and withdraw before he embarrassed himself further.
Either way, he did the right thing, and we as a country will be the beneficiaries once Harris gets into office.
💯 MaryAnne!!! But deep down I will never forgive Biden for putting us through those 3 weeks of agony after his debate debacle. With the future of our democracy literally riding on this election, country comes before any one man’s ego or ambition.
In retrospect, it's remarkable John Fetterman not only stayed the nominee but has flourished since. I guess because his condition could improve while aging is tough to reverse.
No, Biden was actually giving the hint that he’s going to declare the relaunch of his re-election campaign during his convention speech at Chicago. He will tell everyone he’s back in the race and the delegates will vote between him and Disloyal Kamala Harris to determine who’s the Democratic nominee for president. Yesterday’s speech was like the prologue of that.
😂😂😂 good one!!
Sidebar: And he’s going to kick Harris’ butt like he did in the 2020 primary once again!
except....the voting's done. Unless there's a process to reopen the vote, it's already over.
Wow! That was one amazing speech. Thanks for sharing.
Can we go back to this, please?
Yup, it does happen with all of us. It’s one of the reasons parents give better advice after their children leave home.
Fact Check on Cilizza. Biden, as usual, started his speech with a lie. Biden never sponsored a bill with Frank Church in 1973 to allow anyone to negotiate benefits!!! https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse#sponsor=402527&cosponsors=300008&sort=introduced_date&congress=__ALL__
Fact Check on Gore. Cilizza gets the reason why Gore conceded wrong. After 36 days, the Supreme Court that a FL statewide was unconstitutional not that it could "stop." How does he get so many simple facts wrong?
I loved reading your article this morning. I missed Joe Biden with Kamala Harris, but I'm so glad that he made a good showing. I think he's a special human being, and I hate how the press has reduced him because of his showing at the debate.
I was only a teenager at the time, but I recall the same thing being said about Ted Kennedy in 1980 after he lost the nomination to President Carter. Kennedy's speech at the Convention was superb, leading plenty to ask, "Where has this guy been?"