I literally do not understand this person's logic.
Let's take as a starting point their idea that the only satisfactory state of affairs is for the United States to be the supreme power in the world with no equals, not only for generations -- they think that could still happen -- but endlessly, for all time (yes, this does remind me of the "Thousand Year" Reich -- it is far beyond extreme nationalism) -- and that it's important, even at the risk of death or harm to this person's family, for that to happen.
Right there, I am completely baffled. Is this white supremacy? Or English speaking white supremacy, given their apparent belief that the British Empire was a great thing that should not have ended? Or American supremacy, accepting that different Americans are from multiple races (perhaps they do think that)?
Don't they know that for the majority of the US's life as a country it was not a major world power, and that this status of being "the most powerful country in the world" has come and gone for many different nations -- not just the US -- over the centuries without a Blitzkrieg against the rest of the world by a fading power? This is terrifying and irrational.
Second, if for a moment you accept their goal -- which I really can't do, it is so disgraceful -- Why in the world would random, uninformed, and completely ego-driven acts by a convicted felon succeed in making any of that happen? What makes Trump different from "Kamala through Mitt" to them, and better? Is it that he is more willing to slaughter people around the world or crush other countries (even allies) because he doesn't really operate within a moral framework? Or is there some other, non-psychotic aspect of his leadership that this person believes in, but isn't able to clearly explain?
I am stunned by this particular answer to your question.
Esther, yours is a marvelous analysis of the thoughts from Chris' friend. I now start to question why Chris would publish the friend's thoughts as "rational." Those thoughts appear to be one more tortured excuse for voting for Trump. Thank you for your wise interpretation. I always hope that Chris will read the comments and understand that many of us believe a vote for Trump does not have a defense of any kind by any rational person.
Esther, great summary. I really don’t get it. Is our country perfect, no. Does it need to improve, sure. Is it on the brink of imploding???? What? OR, more, WTF??? OK. I got a house. Needs a new roof, maybe a layer of paint, picket fence needs repair. So, I’ll burn it to the ground, with no money to rebuild it, knowing my kids cannot afford to rebuild it, maybe my grandkids or great grandkids, or their kids will rebuild the house. Huh??? But, I do agree maybe in the typical fearful Trump voter the house is infested by rats, cockroaches, poisonous snakes, and an asteroid is targeting it for sure. Maybe then, to hem, the house needs to be burned down. Don’t minimize the power of fear and lies….
Yeah, the sooner we have proof that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, the better. Then maybe we can finally put nationalism, racism, and religion behind us and just be humans. Although I'm sure as humans we'll be arrogant enough to dominate the Universe.
Respectfully...huh? Character is on the ballot - not policies. I have a friend who says, I hate Trump as a person but I'm voting for him because I want my money (hint: if he has your money, he won't be giving it back). The implication is that markets favor Trump and la-de-dah it was so good before when he was President, it will automatically go back to that. The economy is a continuum - it doesn't start and stop with each administration. It took Obama 2 terms to dig us out of the George Bush economic disaster - Trump inherited that economy on the rise and took credit (as most Presidents would) and then crashed and burned the economy with his inept handling of Covid. Then Biden digs us out and we're on our way and on and on. Trump will be a disaster for this country, there is no hoping otherwise Read Project 2025 then consider your options in a different light.
Did I miss something or is there actually no mention of what this decline is. If you are good with the destruction of our country, you should at least be able to say what is so terribly wrong with it.
It's a battle we can never win. trump goes to GA and says the gov never heard from Biden. The gov says he talked to Biden and he was fine. The cult yucks it up that trump was there wading through floodwaters delivering aid. None of his words are true. We're screwed so badly.
Sorry, no, it doesn't change my perception of a Trump voter; I have no idea what this guy is talking about, as articulate as he comes off.
As an aside, I am so sick and tired of people complaining about this country and its shortfalls. We have so much to be thankful for, and still so many people are unhappy with the government.
The President can only do so much. The thought of four more years of Trump and his ilk is truly terrifying.
I agree with you Chris that not all Trump supporters are dumb and/or racists (and many other epithets). That said, I don’t think any of the three examples you have shared helps prove your (true) point. At least with respect to the “dumb” label.
Agreed 💯. As someone that studied philosophy at university, and took the requisite 2 classes in Logic, I can definitively say that all 3 “arguments” you posted, particularly *this* one, are illogical and make no sense. This person *clearly* hasn’t thought things through.
“Chaos agent” that *might* stumble upon a good idea?!? Oh dear god, that’s totally ludicrous, and in a world armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the potential for catastrophic results are *huge*!
If they’re simplistically thinking that Trump would be “better” for the economy, while I think that’s seriously offbase and ignores the facts of the matter (Trump inherited the Obama recovery and didn’t destroy it, but added $8T to the national debt and failed the ONLY test of leadership in his term, both crashing the economy and needlessly killing hundreds of thousands of Americans that wouldn’t have died IF the pandemic had been handled by someone that put country over personal benefit), at least it’s an understandable thought. Doesn’t “get” what *actually* occurred but at least is understandable.
So far, the 3 you’ve shared haven’t exactly been “stupid”, but they definitely don’t qualify as good analytical thinking.
What about Dutch, James P, GreatDarkSpot, or RedFiatSpider? They seem to be happy to make trollish comments but won’t take the time to put their reasons into writing? Maybe because that would reveal they’re more reflexive than thoughtful? Just sayin’…..
I am sick of generosity of spirit when the other side is advocating that there is - at best - 10% upside in all this chaos. It's the very definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
As a voter, I want accountability from these people. And rest assured, in the years to come, I am going to be voting for more of it. As a center-right "normal" person who no longer is represented in this electorate politically, I am angry, and I want people like this punished.
I have a few family members (in-laws) who are Trump voters. I think one of the big reasons they vote for him is he has given them permission to say whatever they want to whoever they want. Many of them would complain about political correctness in society and want a return to the good old days. I would sometimes remind them it's not a matter of correctness, but of kindness. An example of this "permission to be unkind" is a flag hanging on a neighbors porch. It says Trump 2024 F--k your feelings. That pretty much sums up the MAGA voter for me.
So, there's a 90% chance Trump will make things way worse way sooner, but what the hell--he may accidentally stumble into something positive!? And a resignation to the fact that the future of the US is at best "managed decline" is the excuse for this?? How about you roll up your sleeves and try and change that (perceived) trajectory, instead of hoping that a chaos agent accidentally stumbles onto a solution? This person's take is truly shocking, but it in no way convinces me that Trump voters are neither dumb nor racist. No wonder they didn't want their name associated with it.
As a fervent anti-Trumper, I’m all in favor of polite, thoughtful dialog across the spectrum (“wall?”) with a healthy dose of listening and respect. But what do you do when so much of the MAGA beliefs are based on untruths? SO many examples : 2020 election, Trump is a successful businessman, illegal immigrant voting, illegal immigrant crime, alleged “crimes” of the Biden, Clinton and Harris families, etc etc…
Chris - the note from your friend at some level is far too rational to truly represent what many think about Trump and why they might consider voting for him while not being enthralled by him merely from a personality point of view. Basically, given the way Trump is presently behaving at his various events, and given the plan to embrace most, if not all, of the ideas presented in the "2025 memorandum", I cant believe that any rational, sensible, non racist individual, who does not believe in White Christian Nationalism, could conceivably consider voting for Trump. True, we need to think of the future and how we can engage with the 46% of Americans who clearly feel this way. But trying to even consider them as rational. Trying to consider them as educated (and here I dont mean that they may not have college degrees, and post graduate degrees of all sorts, as I know doctors, lawyers and scientists who will be voting for Trump), but I mean educated in the sense that they believe in freedom of expression and action, believe that all people are born and should live as equals irrespective of their race, religion or sexual practices and beliefs. No, these people in that sense are not educated. They believe that just because they dont consider abortion appropriate, no one should have one, regardless of the issues and regardless of the fact that they dont know the circumstances of the person requesting that abortion. Just because they are straight, have no gender issues, they believe they have the right to force that belief on to all those who feel differently. They might believe that women are not in all ways equal to men, that Blacks or Brown people are not the equal of a White person. But that is not a person who one can consider educated in the true sense since we know all people are equal in the basic sense of the word and thus should be treated as equals. To deal with that 46% we are going to have to come up with some special plans and ideas and we are going to have to know that it is going to take a long, long time to heal this split in American, and for that matter the societies around the world. As we know, Austria, Italy, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Britain and many other countries are also populated with seemingly 25-35%, or perhaps an even higher percentage of people who believe in the same concepts as this 46% of Americans. I think the key is that we have to get to the bottom of why that is. Why, in 2024, despite the horrors of the wars of the 20th century, despite the improvement in the quality of lives of so many in the world, who live much better than their grandparents and great-grandparents ever dreamed of living, do so many still want to deprive all humans from living in that same and better way? Why, despite our improved lives and education, are we still surrounded by people who hate those who are different? Who want to live only with people who look and believe the same way they do. Why do they not want to live and let live basically? Why is that. and why do they show it by voting for someone like Trump, who has all his life, hated others, tried to cheat others, done only what was good and beneficial for himself, and to some extent his family? Why would one vote for someone who says and believes hateful things? Who would truly want to make America a place where hatred for the Black man, hatred for the immigrant, hatred for those who live and feel differently, is personified as good, while those who want to live and let live, who want everyone to have their place, who want to keep this world from deteriorating in so many ways, including our environment, which we all depend on for our own and our children's futures, and which should thus be cared for, nurtured and improved, and not trampled and polluted to destruction, why should these people suffer? That is what we need to work on. We cant simply ignore that there is truly something wrong with that 46%.
Very succinctly put. I believe this is one of the core issues at the heart of us not understanding one another! It feels so "obvious" to each of us in our own camps. I keep forgetting this very basic concept when trying to understand Trump supporters.
"With Trump, there is a very, very high chance, maybe 90%, that he will accelerate that decline in a way that is violent and painful and maybe someone in my family will actually feel."
So this person's vote for Trump is essentially wishing for "violent" pain on all of us and his FAMILY so we don't become Britain ???!!!
My gut feeling is that some Trump voters at some level actually *want* the destruction, in the same way that people kind of get excited about a big blizzard being forecast.
Indeed! Here in Arizona, I know several highly educated people who believe that such governmental (“deep state”) destruction, in varying ways and degrees, is “necessary.” Parroters of super extreme right wing gurus like Thiel, investor Balaji Srinivasan, Yarvin and a batch of other low lying like-minded neo-philosophers, their positions were cemented 4 years ago and have only strengthened. They couldn’t care less about Trump’s crimes, lies, misogyny, racism or abusiveness. How many more are out there whom we haven’t a clue about? Trump backers are not limited to hordes of red-faced drama fans streaming into rallies, as the media mostly portrays.
There is no decline. Decline is in the minds of Trump voters who seem to believe that a more progressive, open , accepting society is a bad thing. We've been moving inexorably in that direction since the 1960s, though conservatives continue to throw roadblocks in the way.
I get what you’re trying to do, Chris, but it just doesn’t make any sense. The idea that this guy is probably leading us to hell, but maybe once we get there, we’ll realize how to be a better country and regain our role in the global order is ridiculous. So the only pathway to prosperity is following a narcissist who thinks strong leadership is about name calling, bullying and doing whatever he says to do, without questioning it? And it feels a lot like this guy is just buying into Trump’s very, very dark view of the world. I’ll close by repeating what I’ve said a few times now. You don’t get to vote for only the good side of Trump. If you vote for him, you’re voting for all of it. And if that’s our path to a brighter future, we’re in a lot of trouble.
I literally do not understand this person's logic.
Let's take as a starting point their idea that the only satisfactory state of affairs is for the United States to be the supreme power in the world with no equals, not only for generations -- they think that could still happen -- but endlessly, for all time (yes, this does remind me of the "Thousand Year" Reich -- it is far beyond extreme nationalism) -- and that it's important, even at the risk of death or harm to this person's family, for that to happen.
Right there, I am completely baffled. Is this white supremacy? Or English speaking white supremacy, given their apparent belief that the British Empire was a great thing that should not have ended? Or American supremacy, accepting that different Americans are from multiple races (perhaps they do think that)?
Don't they know that for the majority of the US's life as a country it was not a major world power, and that this status of being "the most powerful country in the world" has come and gone for many different nations -- not just the US -- over the centuries without a Blitzkrieg against the rest of the world by a fading power? This is terrifying and irrational.
Second, if for a moment you accept their goal -- which I really can't do, it is so disgraceful -- Why in the world would random, uninformed, and completely ego-driven acts by a convicted felon succeed in making any of that happen? What makes Trump different from "Kamala through Mitt" to them, and better? Is it that he is more willing to slaughter people around the world or crush other countries (even allies) because he doesn't really operate within a moral framework? Or is there some other, non-psychotic aspect of his leadership that this person believes in, but isn't able to clearly explain?
I am stunned by this particular answer to your question.
Esther, yours is a marvelous analysis of the thoughts from Chris' friend. I now start to question why Chris would publish the friend's thoughts as "rational." Those thoughts appear to be one more tortured excuse for voting for Trump. Thank you for your wise interpretation. I always hope that Chris will read the comments and understand that many of us believe a vote for Trump does not have a defense of any kind by any rational person.
Esther, great summary. I really don’t get it. Is our country perfect, no. Does it need to improve, sure. Is it on the brink of imploding???? What? OR, more, WTF??? OK. I got a house. Needs a new roof, maybe a layer of paint, picket fence needs repair. So, I’ll burn it to the ground, with no money to rebuild it, knowing my kids cannot afford to rebuild it, maybe my grandkids or great grandkids, or their kids will rebuild the house. Huh??? But, I do agree maybe in the typical fearful Trump voter the house is infested by rats, cockroaches, poisonous snakes, and an asteroid is targeting it for sure. Maybe then, to hem, the house needs to be burned down. Don’t minimize the power of fear and lies….
Excellent comment! I agree 💯%!
Yeah, the sooner we have proof that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe, the better. Then maybe we can finally put nationalism, racism, and religion behind us and just be humans. Although I'm sure as humans we'll be arrogant enough to dominate the Universe.
Well stated and well reasoned reply Ester!
Respectfully...huh? Character is on the ballot - not policies. I have a friend who says, I hate Trump as a person but I'm voting for him because I want my money (hint: if he has your money, he won't be giving it back). The implication is that markets favor Trump and la-de-dah it was so good before when he was President, it will automatically go back to that. The economy is a continuum - it doesn't start and stop with each administration. It took Obama 2 terms to dig us out of the George Bush economic disaster - Trump inherited that economy on the rise and took credit (as most Presidents would) and then crashed and burned the economy with his inept handling of Covid. Then Biden digs us out and we're on our way and on and on. Trump will be a disaster for this country, there is no hoping otherwise Read Project 2025 then consider your options in a different light.
Did I miss something or is there actually no mention of what this decline is. If you are good with the destruction of our country, you should at least be able to say what is so terribly wrong with it.
It's a battle we can never win. trump goes to GA and says the gov never heard from Biden. The gov says he talked to Biden and he was fine. The cult yucks it up that trump was there wading through floodwaters delivering aid. None of his words are true. We're screwed so badly.
Yes!
Sorry, no, it doesn't change my perception of a Trump voter; I have no idea what this guy is talking about, as articulate as he comes off.
As an aside, I am so sick and tired of people complaining about this country and its shortfalls. We have so much to be thankful for, and still so many people are unhappy with the government.
The President can only do so much. The thought of four more years of Trump and his ilk is truly terrifying.
Amen!
I agree with you Chris that not all Trump supporters are dumb and/or racists (and many other epithets). That said, I don’t think any of the three examples you have shared helps prove your (true) point. At least with respect to the “dumb” label.
Agreed 💯. As someone that studied philosophy at university, and took the requisite 2 classes in Logic, I can definitively say that all 3 “arguments” you posted, particularly *this* one, are illogical and make no sense. This person *clearly* hasn’t thought things through.
“Chaos agent” that *might* stumble upon a good idea?!? Oh dear god, that’s totally ludicrous, and in a world armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the potential for catastrophic results are *huge*!
If they’re simplistically thinking that Trump would be “better” for the economy, while I think that’s seriously offbase and ignores the facts of the matter (Trump inherited the Obama recovery and didn’t destroy it, but added $8T to the national debt and failed the ONLY test of leadership in his term, both crashing the economy and needlessly killing hundreds of thousands of Americans that wouldn’t have died IF the pandemic had been handled by someone that put country over personal benefit), at least it’s an understandable thought. Doesn’t “get” what *actually* occurred but at least is understandable.
So far, the 3 you’ve shared haven’t exactly been “stupid”, but they definitely don’t qualify as good analytical thinking.
What about Dutch, James P, GreatDarkSpot, or RedFiatSpider? They seem to be happy to make trollish comments but won’t take the time to put their reasons into writing? Maybe because that would reveal they’re more reflexive than thoughtful? Just sayin’…..
You were a philosophy major and make over $200K a year? Geez, I got bad advice from college advisers then.
I am sick of generosity of spirit when the other side is advocating that there is - at best - 10% upside in all this chaos. It's the very definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
As a voter, I want accountability from these people. And rest assured, in the years to come, I am going to be voting for more of it. As a center-right "normal" person who no longer is represented in this electorate politically, I am angry, and I want people like this punished.
I have a few family members (in-laws) who are Trump voters. I think one of the big reasons they vote for him is he has given them permission to say whatever they want to whoever they want. Many of them would complain about political correctness in society and want a return to the good old days. I would sometimes remind them it's not a matter of correctness, but of kindness. An example of this "permission to be unkind" is a flag hanging on a neighbors porch. It says Trump 2024 F--k your feelings. That pretty much sums up the MAGA voter for me.
Oh my. Good point. Yikes.
So, there's a 90% chance Trump will make things way worse way sooner, but what the hell--he may accidentally stumble into something positive!? And a resignation to the fact that the future of the US is at best "managed decline" is the excuse for this?? How about you roll up your sleeves and try and change that (perceived) trajectory, instead of hoping that a chaos agent accidentally stumbles onto a solution? This person's take is truly shocking, but it in no way convinces me that Trump voters are neither dumb nor racist. No wonder they didn't want their name associated with it.
Yeah, that makes no sense.
As a fervent anti-Trumper, I’m all in favor of polite, thoughtful dialog across the spectrum (“wall?”) with a healthy dose of listening and respect. But what do you do when so much of the MAGA beliefs are based on untruths? SO many examples : 2020 election, Trump is a successful businessman, illegal immigrant voting, illegal immigrant crime, alleged “crimes” of the Biden, Clinton and Harris families, etc etc…
And it's hard to have a discussion with them when many of them say that if their guy doesn't win, they think we should have a Civil War.
Chris - the note from your friend at some level is far too rational to truly represent what many think about Trump and why they might consider voting for him while not being enthralled by him merely from a personality point of view. Basically, given the way Trump is presently behaving at his various events, and given the plan to embrace most, if not all, of the ideas presented in the "2025 memorandum", I cant believe that any rational, sensible, non racist individual, who does not believe in White Christian Nationalism, could conceivably consider voting for Trump. True, we need to think of the future and how we can engage with the 46% of Americans who clearly feel this way. But trying to even consider them as rational. Trying to consider them as educated (and here I dont mean that they may not have college degrees, and post graduate degrees of all sorts, as I know doctors, lawyers and scientists who will be voting for Trump), but I mean educated in the sense that they believe in freedom of expression and action, believe that all people are born and should live as equals irrespective of their race, religion or sexual practices and beliefs. No, these people in that sense are not educated. They believe that just because they dont consider abortion appropriate, no one should have one, regardless of the issues and regardless of the fact that they dont know the circumstances of the person requesting that abortion. Just because they are straight, have no gender issues, they believe they have the right to force that belief on to all those who feel differently. They might believe that women are not in all ways equal to men, that Blacks or Brown people are not the equal of a White person. But that is not a person who one can consider educated in the true sense since we know all people are equal in the basic sense of the word and thus should be treated as equals. To deal with that 46% we are going to have to come up with some special plans and ideas and we are going to have to know that it is going to take a long, long time to heal this split in American, and for that matter the societies around the world. As we know, Austria, Italy, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Britain and many other countries are also populated with seemingly 25-35%, or perhaps an even higher percentage of people who believe in the same concepts as this 46% of Americans. I think the key is that we have to get to the bottom of why that is. Why, in 2024, despite the horrors of the wars of the 20th century, despite the improvement in the quality of lives of so many in the world, who live much better than their grandparents and great-grandparents ever dreamed of living, do so many still want to deprive all humans from living in that same and better way? Why, despite our improved lives and education, are we still surrounded by people who hate those who are different? Who want to live only with people who look and believe the same way they do. Why do they not want to live and let live basically? Why is that. and why do they show it by voting for someone like Trump, who has all his life, hated others, tried to cheat others, done only what was good and beneficial for himself, and to some extent his family? Why would one vote for someone who says and believes hateful things? Who would truly want to make America a place where hatred for the Black man, hatred for the immigrant, hatred for those who live and feel differently, is personified as good, while those who want to live and let live, who want everyone to have their place, who want to keep this world from deteriorating in so many ways, including our environment, which we all depend on for our own and our children's futures, and which should thus be cared for, nurtured and improved, and not trampled and polluted to destruction, why should these people suffer? That is what we need to work on. We cant simply ignore that there is truly something wrong with that 46%.
The commenters confusion over this voters "decline" claim is probably the crux of the problem. What some see as progress others see as decline.
Very succinctly put. I believe this is one of the core issues at the heart of us not understanding one another! It feels so "obvious" to each of us in our own camps. I keep forgetting this very basic concept when trying to understand Trump supporters.
"With Trump, there is a very, very high chance, maybe 90%, that he will accelerate that decline in a way that is violent and painful and maybe someone in my family will actually feel."
So this person's vote for Trump is essentially wishing for "violent" pain on all of us and his FAMILY so we don't become Britain ???!!!
My gut feeling is that some Trump voters at some level actually *want* the destruction, in the same way that people kind of get excited about a big blizzard being forecast.
Indeed! Here in Arizona, I know several highly educated people who believe that such governmental (“deep state”) destruction, in varying ways and degrees, is “necessary.” Parroters of super extreme right wing gurus like Thiel, investor Balaji Srinivasan, Yarvin and a batch of other low lying like-minded neo-philosophers, their positions were cemented 4 years ago and have only strengthened. They couldn’t care less about Trump’s crimes, lies, misogyny, racism or abusiveness. How many more are out there whom we haven’t a clue about? Trump backers are not limited to hordes of red-faced drama fans streaming into rallies, as the media mostly portrays.
I know, right? I don't see any other way to interpret their statement than that they are okay with that scenario. Wow.
There is no decline. Decline is in the minds of Trump voters who seem to believe that a more progressive, open , accepting society is a bad thing. We've been moving inexorably in that direction since the 1960s, though conservatives continue to throw roadblocks in the way.
I get what you’re trying to do, Chris, but it just doesn’t make any sense. The idea that this guy is probably leading us to hell, but maybe once we get there, we’ll realize how to be a better country and regain our role in the global order is ridiculous. So the only pathway to prosperity is following a narcissist who thinks strong leadership is about name calling, bullying and doing whatever he says to do, without questioning it? And it feels a lot like this guy is just buying into Trump’s very, very dark view of the world. I’ll close by repeating what I’ve said a few times now. You don’t get to vote for only the good side of Trump. If you vote for him, you’re voting for all of it. And if that’s our path to a brighter future, we’re in a lot of trouble.
There is a non-zero chance that we will all turn into sofas. 🤷♂️